When is a Leica not a Leica?

[Rag9fx]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

So are C-lux, D-lux, V-lux, Digilux cameras real Leicas or are they just pretentious Panasonics? I am posing this question since I recently over heard a debate about the CL not being a Leica due to being produced by Minolta in Japan. And it got me to thinking ... for the majority of Leica Digitals ( or PanaLeicas if you will) i have found that the Panasonic equivalents tend to get reviewed and the Leica variants seem to be an afterthought ( maybe i am just looking at the wrong reviews .) I am a proud owner of a C-lux 1 ( i love shooting with it and have taken some very pleasing shots -at least to myself) and have been thinking about grabbing a V-Lux to explore and develop some more skills. But to other leica purist would i just be seen as poser for not shooting with a real leica ( like the M8 - which i think is a cool camera but i feel is probably beyond me and my skills and also -for me- is prohibitively expensive)? would i better off shooting with a 'real' Nikon or Cannon? I really like the brand and really dig the heritage but i would hate to think that shooting with a PanaLeica would be pretentious - what to do ?

 

Rob

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Paul Gruyters]

I own the V Lux and love it. I regard it as a "real" Leica simply because it is. I purchased it in favour of the Oly 500. I don't need the hassle of multiple lenses and I also couldn't resist the chance to own such a camera that seemed so right for me. I am quite harsh in my requirements as to how cameras appear visually and the Panasonic FZ50 was way off the mark in its appearance. As I have said before I find the marriage of German optics with Japanese electronics a superb idea, and I boast about it when people comment on my Leica.

 

Regards,

Paul.

[rick123]

Hi Roberto,

 

Welcome to the forum!

I have the quintessential Leica: M6 with a Summilux-50mm 50mm f/1.4. I rarely shoot film anymore, but look forward to using the lens with the next digital M version & perhaps the M6 as a back-up (it is too nice a machine to part with).

I also have the D-Lux 2 (with the retro, brown leather case). It is so easy to bring everywhere - allowing me to capture so many images I would have otherwise missed (to me what any good camera really allows). Having used the camera for almost a year, I find it has only 2 limitations: in bright sunlight, the LCD is useless & dim light, the flash is weak. Other then that, the images are truly worth the Leica brand: the optics, well they are magnificent. So in my humble opinion as an avid amateur photographer, I think if Leica (with its long history) feels the product is good enough to put its name on it, then indeed it is a Leica and enjoy it as such!

 

Rick

[sean_reid]

Who knows what exactly a "real Leica" should be and, ultimately, who cares? Leica and Panasonic work jointly on the design of these cameras and one could see the Leica influence on the design as early as the Digilux 1. Of course, they're not built like the M8 nor are they priced like it. They tend, however, to be fairly impressive cameras in many ways (based on my tests of the D2, D3, DL2, DL3).

 

There's nothing pretentious about using the PanaLeicas and I wouldn't give that topic another thought. They're good cameras and thats all that matters.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[ken_tanaka]

Rob: Why in the world should you care what others think of your camera? It's not jewelry or clothing. All that matters are the photographs, irrespective of the camera used. Use the camera that you can afford, enjoy using, and, most importantly, that you trust.

[hsw]

( i love shooting with it and have taken some very pleasing shots -at least to myself)

 

Forget what anyone else says (about anything). I've seen some of your posts and it's clear you're having fun. You should by any camera that you can afford without hurting your finances and that allows you to expand your talent. It's nice to have Leicas, most of them are quality products, but don't let what others feel be your guide. You're already posting here so you're a member of the "Club"! Most of the people I come in contact with have no idea what Leica even is. Just go take pictures!

 

Regards,

Henry

 

By the way, I'm very happy with my V-Lux1.

[Riley]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

i likely have an unexpected tack on this

lets focus on the Digilux 2

 

I can not think of a previous Panasonic camera that was anything like D2

when D2 appeared at around the same time, we got LC-1 and yes they are closer than similar cameras

 

Looking around D2 we see a speed dial, aperture ring, Leica like shade hood, the Summicron lens, a more complete accessory set than most. On the front of the lens is a 69mm thread for filters. Think about that for a second, why on earth would Panasonic do that, when 68 or 72mm would be the standard. I mean who on earth does such a thing; Leica does, that's who.

 

I think D2 was a design brief from Leica, executed by Panasonic; in the trade Panasonic got LC-1. Looking around at the utility of D2/LC-1 is there somehow harm in this. Someone in Panasonic did this for fun and profit, because someone in there enjoys cameras for being cameras. Not some over pretentious badge swap and has been implied.

[ho_co]

Roberto, the question is a reasonable one since the Panasonic and Leica cameras are so closely related. In every case (except possibly the D-Lux 2) the firmware in the Leica version is different from that of its Panasonic sibling. That says that the two are not identical.

 

I also understand that Leica gets 'first pick' of the cameras. That is, Leica has an inspector at the production facility whose job is to pick bodies in which Leica's tolerances are met. The implication is that some of the Panasonic cameras are units that didn't meet Leica's standards. But they cost less as well, so who'se going to argue?

 

You'll always find someone who wants to argue whether a given product is a "real XXX" or not. Someone told me the other day that Nikon lenses made in Thailand are "real Nikkors" while those made in China aren't. (I remember when the "real Nikkors" were made in Japan.) All I care about is whether the camera/lens fills my needs.

 

In other words, you've got as much right as others to set the terms of what passes for 'real' in your case. I've got three of the Panasonic/Leica products, and in each case I chose the Leica version without hesitation, first because their styling is usually more to my liking and second because I know the way Leica supports their products and their customers.

 

But if someone wants to tell me my Digiluxes aren't 'real Leicas,' he's wasting his time trying to convince me, and I would be wasting my mind trying to convince him of the opposite.

 

I know the people at Leica, and I say that when the red dot goes on, it's a Leica. (By that I don't mean that the red dot makes it a Leica, but that the red dot certifies that it meets Leica's quality standards.)

 

--HC

[Iron Flatline]

A camera (in my mind) is primarily the lens, and the shutter mechanism. The little knobs and dials that control the camera are important, but does not require the same high level of expertise to manufacture.

 

The other part of the image capturing equation is the film, or sensor. In the days of film, the capture medium was provided by a third party - a manufacturer other than the camera builder. We would take our Leicas, and put in film from Kodak, Fuji, Orwo - you name it.

 

Now that digital is here, people forget that the capture medium is still not made by the camera manufacturer (notable exception is Canon, who make their own sensors.)

 

Finally, you must ask yourself what the relationship is between the owner of the camera, and manufacturer. Is the camera from a company that specializes in photgraphy, or a general electronics manufacturer. This will affect warranty issues, general know-how, etc.

 

All taken together, I would suggest that the Digilux is a real Leica. I can't comment on the V-Lux, and I would hazzard a guess that the D-Lux and C-Lux are probably simple digicams. I still added a D-Lux 3 to my collection (rather than the Panasonic version) because I want to support Leica during its digital transition.

[luigi bertolotti]

So are C-lux, D-lux, V-lux, Digilux cameras real Leicas or are they just pretentious Panasonics? I am posing this question since I recently over heard a debate about the CL not being a Leica due to being produced by Minolta in Japan. And it got me to thinking ... for the majority of Leica Digitals ( or PanaLeicas if you will) i have found that the Panasonic equivalents tend to get reviewed and the Leica variants seem to be an afterthought ( maybe i am just looking at the wrong reviews .) I am a proud owner of a C-lux 1 ( i love shooting with it and have taken some very pleasing shots -at least to myself) and have been thinking about grabbing a V-Lux to explore and develop some more skills. But to other leica purist would i just be seen as poser for not shooting with a real leica ( like the M8 - which i think is a cool camera but i feel is probably beyond me and my skills and also -for me- is prohibitively expensive)? would i better off shooting with a 'real' Nikon or Cannon? I really like the brand and really dig the heritage but i would hate to think that shooting with a PanaLeica would be pretentious - what to do ?

 

Rob

 

As an owner of a CL, I think that the comparision between the Leitz-Minolta agreement of the '70s and the present Leica-Panasonic is really fitting: in both cases, Germans needed technologies they did not have in house, would cost too much to develop inside, took agreements with outsiders: this is a standard in the world of industrial products with different technologies inside; CL is undoubtly a Leica product, lenses are classic Wetzlars, VF/RF with frames is Leitz heritage, vertical metal shutter is pure Japanese, the result is a fine camera, period; so as the Saab 9.3 Diesel version is a classic Saab product that includes a Fiat-made engine with electronic injection firmware "written" inside Saab. When, in the '30s, Leitz decide to switch from sheet metal bending to metal casting for the body of Leica, they surely setup a cast department in Wetzlar... nowadays a similar choice would be seen as ridicolous... good casters are everywhere in Germany, Europe and where you like. A Leica IS a real Leica for the simple reason that a Company that has the right to bear this name puts the product on the market: it shall be the market itself that, if they do not take care af their reputation, shall start to respond "yes, a Leica, BUT..."

[carstenw]

If it says Leica on it, it is a Leica. Having said that, there are clearly differences between the different Leica cameras. Using a C-Lux isn't going to impress some people as much as an M8, but then again, who cares. Just shoot and have fun, and admire your real red dot

[sean_reid]

I also understand that Leica gets 'first pick' of the cameras. That is, Leica has an inspector at the production facility whose job is to pick bodies in which Leica's tolerances are met. The implication is that some of the Panasonic cameras are units that didn't meet Leica's standards.

--HC

 

Hi Howard,

 

I wouldn't be too sure about the Panasonic branded versions sometimes being the units that didn't make the grade with Leica. That legend may be, as Dickens' Scrooge once said, more of gravy than of the grave. But...Leica does provide a better warranty and their support tends to be quite good. I do agree that those things certainly have value. I also can see the value of buying the Leica version of a given camera as a way of supporting the company.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[spylaw4]

i likely have an unexpected tack on this

lets focus on the Digilux 2

 

I can not think of a previous Panasonic camera that was anything like D2

when D2 appeared at around the same time, we got LC-1 and yes they are closer than similar cameras

 

Looking around D2 we see a speed dial, aperture ring, Leica like shade hood, the Summicron lens, a more complete accessory set than most. On the front of the lens is a 69mm thread for filters. Think about that for a second, why on earth would Panasonic do that, when 68 or 72mm would be the standard. I mean who on earth does such a thing; Leica does, that's who.

 

I think D2 was a design brief from Leica, executed by Panasonic; in the trade Panasonic got LC-1. Looking around at the utility of D2/LC-1 is there somehow harm in this. Someone in Panasonic did this for fun and profit, because someone in there enjoys cameras for being cameras. Not some over pretentious badge swap and has been implied.

 

You may have a very good point there Riley! The end result has been a quite superb camera producing recognisable pictures with their own "signature" as the other on-going thread shows. Very Leica!

 

The D3/L1 is another matter due to the 4/3 standard bits.

[wattsy]

I also understand that Leica gets 'first pick' of the cameras. That is, Leica has an inspector at the production facility whose job is to pick bodies in which Leica's tolerances are met.

 

Is this something your dealer told you?

[rob_x2004]

Be quite reasonable for Leica to have QA programme running in the panasonic factory. Since the Leica and Pana models have different shells how would a John West rejects get from Leica into the Pana bunch? Anyway, to use Leica stamp on hte Pana bodies they have to meet Leicas specs and probably QA tps for allowing them the branding.

 

Hey my film camera drives come out of Portugal......Damn knew I could smell goats cheese in the house.

[wattsy]

I wouldn't be too sure about the Panasonic branded versions sometimes being the units that didn't make the grade with Leica. That legend may be, as Dickens' Scrooge once said, more of gravy than of the grave.

 

Indeed. It doesn't make sense anyway. The Leica 'versions', whilst having the same innards, usually have a different body shell design. They are presumably made by Panasonic as part of a specific production run. Whether they are made to tighter tolerances is anyone's guess but clearly they are not units picked out by some Leica bod inspecting a general production run of the Panasonic branded cameras.

[rob_x2004]

I'm waiting for LCTs catroon of a little Leica man in a white coat standing at the pana loading dock shouting up at the driver..."Over my dead body untill I have inspected them"...While in Germany...theres this little guy in broken glasses assembling M8s and...

[Guest stnami]

.theres this little guy in broken glasses assembling M8s and..............with the help of Tommy, that deaf, dumb and blind kid who sure make a mean m8

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Johannes Knightworth]

.theres this little guy in broken glasses assembling M8s and..............with the help of Tommy, that deaf, dumb and blind kid who sure make a mean m8

 

Ever since I was a young boy

I've played the little red dot

From Solms down to Kyoto

I must of played them all

But I ain't seen nothing like him

In any factory hall

That deaf, dumb and blind dude

Sure manufactures the best digicam of all ....

 

He stands there like a statue

Becomes part of the machine

Feeling all the switches

Always playing clean

He checks by intuition

The digit counters fall

That deaf, dumb and blind dude

Makes sure it's the best Cam of all

 

Dada dada dada .....

[bampolsk]

I have a V-Lux1 and a newly acquired M8. They are different cameras, but share a number of attributes, the most important of which is the extraordinary lenses. I bought the V-Lux1 because I needed long lens capability in a convenient package (my Leicaflex SL with 400 Telyt and 70-210 Vario Elmar) is no longer convenient... particularly when I'm already carrying around an M8, an M6 and an assortment of M lenses. I primarily am a wide angle photographer (28mm Summicron is my standard lens), and bought the V-Lux1 for those occasions when I do need a longer lens. Are they both Leicas? Well, there is a qualitative difference in the feel of the two. Nonetheless, I do enjoy using the V-Lux1 and its image quality is excellent. So, I agree with those who say "who cares what other people think it is" and with those who say that "both are Leicas". Enjoy.