wlaidlaw Posted January 23, 2014 Share #721 Posted January 23, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Try a humble 50mm Summarit - this is one very very good lens. Wide open it is a stellar performer and equally as good if not better than a Summicron. I have them all and honestly for size and performance the 50mm F2.5 is right up the amongst the very best of 50mm's. Paul, That is very interesting because I think my 75/2.5 Summarit is the dullest rendering lens I have (it is a very early one from the initial batch). Strangely, that makes it not a bad technical lens but my next lens purchase once I have sold a whole boxful of surplus stuff, is to upgrade my 75 Summarit to a 75 Summicron. Also the fixed hood and lens cap which always falls off in the bag and has to be scrabbled for, irritates me Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here APO Summicron 50/2 ASPH: Central veiling flare / fogging. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Peter Branch Posted January 23, 2014 Share #722 Posted January 23, 2014 And at a small enough size , not just cost. I think Puts wrote about the combination of performance and limited size as the ultimate hurdle, and his amazement that it could be achieved. (Except maybe it couldn't….yet.).......Jeff It seems to me that there are a number of separate issues being debated. At the time I was first told about the 50mm f/2 prototype Leica were reported to have come to the conclusion that the 50mm f/2 Summicron-M needed to be upgraded. This led, it was said, to several approaches to the problem none of which resulted, at that time, in a new 50mm f/2. One approach resulted in the 50mm f/1.4 Summilux-M FLE which it was stated could be produced for a cost very little different from that of an upgraded 50mm f/2. Customers, it was concluded, would overwhelmingly prefer the f/1.4 in such circumstances. The critical issue was that any new 50mm f2 had to exhibit a significantly higher performance than the 50mm Summicron - M. Another approach was reported to be the prototype 50mm f/2 ASPH APO lens which met the criteria of outstanding performance but made no attempt to be comparable in cost to the then new 50mm f/1.4. It has to be remembered that in those days Leica was not the company it is today and the market for very expensive lenses was severely limited. I can only report what I was told which was that it was the cost of maintaining the necessary precision which inhibited commercial production. It was not that it could not be manufactured but that the result would be too expensive for the market. Quite what changed in the intervening years is not clear to me. It may be that Leica has much improved production methods which would help to constrain costs, it may be the reported prototype was re-designed, it may be that the market for very expensive lenses, (let's not kid ourselves >£5.000 GBP for a 50mm f/2 lens is very expensive), has expanded helped perhaps by the M8 and its successors. I have no idea. Regarding size I'm not convinced. It seems to me that there is no reason why a 50mm f/2 APO cannot be as large as, say, a Noctilux if that is what is required to give outstanding performance. Certainly E Puts commented on the fact that the recently released Zeiss 55mm Otus lens, for DSLR cameras, is much larger than the 50mm APO. The one reference I can find in E. Puts' publications regarding the ability of Leica to produce an unexpectedly small lens of outstanding performance relates to the 28mm f/2 Summicron - M ASPH from the year 2000. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewilde Posted January 23, 2014 Share #723 Posted January 23, 2014 I'm not able to love the 50 1.5 have had it a few times, optimized, not optimized, I just can't get along with it, it just kinda sits around, lonely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewilde Posted January 23, 2014 Share #724 Posted January 23, 2014 It seems to me that there are a number of separate issues being debated. At the time I was first told about the 50mm f/2 prototype Leica were reported to have come to the conclusion that the 50mm f/2 Summicron-M needed to be upgraded. This led, it was said, to several approaches to the problem none of which resulted, at that time, in a new 50mm f/2. One approach resulted in the 50mm f/1.4 Summilux-M FLE which it was stated could be produced for a cost very little different from that of an upgraded 50mm f/2. Customers, it was concluded, would overwhelmingly prefer the f/1.4 in such circumstances. The critical issue was that any new 50mm f2 had to exhibit a significantly higher performance than the 50mm Summicron - M. Another approach was reported to be the prototype 50mm f/2 ASPH APO lens which met the criteria of outstanding performance but made no attempt to be comparable in cost to the then new 50mm f/1.4. It has to be remembered that in those days Leica was not the company it is today and the market for very expensive lenses was severely limited. I can only report what I was told which was that it was the cost of maintaining the necessary precision which inhibited commercial production. It was not that it could not be manufactured but that the result would be too expensive for the market. Quite what changed in the intervening years is not clear to me. It may be that Leica has much improved production methods which would help to constrain costs, it may be the reported prototype was re-designed, it may be that the market for very expensive lenses, (let's not kid ourselves >£5.000 GBP for a 50mm f/2 lens is very expensive), has expanded helped perhaps by the M8 and its successors. I have no idea. Regarding size I'm not convinced. It seems to me that there is no reason why a 50mm f/2 APO cannot be as large as, say, a Noctilux if that is what is required to give outstanding performance. Certainly E Puts commented on the fact that the recently released Zeiss 55mm Otus lens, for DSLR cameras, is much larger than the 50mm APO. The one reference I can find in E. Puts' publications regarding the ability of Leica to produce an unexpectedly small lens of outstanding performance relates to the 28mm f/2 Summicron - M ASPH from the year 2000. Interesting. On the part about the 50/2 being as big as the Noctilux, I can tell you now, if it was, I wouldn't buy.. I actually rarely use the Noctilux because of it's size. I would have sooner stuck with the 50Lux-asph and just put up with the issues I have with it. Or would have kept on using the 50/2 ZM In fact, one of the reasons I bought the 50APO was size and shape. It looks good on an M body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Root Posted February 7, 2014 Share #725 Posted February 7, 2014 I just received my 50 summicron asph back from Solms from being upgraded for the flare issue along with a stiffer aperture ring that I requested from Leica, which they completed without charge. I am tied up in meetings for a few days in Boston, but will be back to my home along the Caspian the first part of this upcoming week and look forward to testing for flare. I'll post my thoughts about how well the flare issue has been solved after I have had a chance to put the lens through its paces. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHellow Posted February 7, 2014 Share #726 Posted February 7, 2014 I just received my 50 summicron asph back from Solms from being upgraded for the flare issue along with a stiffer aperture ring that I requested from Leica, which they completed without charge. I am tied up in meetings for a few days in Boston, but will be back to my home along the Caspian the first part of this upcoming week and look forward to testing for flare. I'll post my thoughts about how well the flare issue has been solved after I have had a chance to put the lens through its paces. Also just received mine back from Leica as well with "adjust focus" and "fix reflexes". Mine did not have severe CVF, just notice it on a couple of pics. I am traveling the rest of the week so will post when I have a chance to shoot next week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewilde Posted February 7, 2014 Share #727 Posted February 7, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Mines due back soon, for the second time. Will also update. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 7, 2014 Share #728 Posted February 7, 2014 Mines due back soon, for the second time. Will also update. Why for a second time if I may ask? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewilde Posted February 8, 2014 Share #729 Posted February 8, 2014 Originally the lens was more colorful and more contrasty, but had pretty bad CVF at wide open to stopped down. They "fixed" it, and the CVF was not so bad wide open, but the contrast and color vibrancy took a nose dive. My aim is to have the lens as contrasty and vibrant as before, with little to no CVF, and maybe a bit more general flare management. Considering they told me in a phone conversation they were having problems with the coating of some elements (among other things), I'm hoping that the fix I'm looking for is possible if all the right parts come together. However, it seems, they just can't reliably reproduce the lens they set out to make. Will update... I wonder if we should start a pool of how many tries it takes Leica to get it right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted February 8, 2014 Share #730 Posted February 8, 2014 What Leica should do is admit they have made a mess of the lens and patching up copies with this Band-Aid approach is not right, not least because of the uncertainty this creates for possibly selling the lens on in the future. Some straight-talking about what is causing the problem would be a help, followed by a plan, and foc exchange for a replacement lens when it's right. Without that willingness to get it right and do right by the early adopters, who is going to trust Leica when they come out with the next wonder-lens? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaPassion Posted February 8, 2014 Share #731 Posted February 8, 2014 If Leica is unable to provide a lens that achieves the image quality it represented, the company should offer a full refund. I'm still sitting on the sidelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewilde Posted February 9, 2014 Share #732 Posted February 9, 2014 I guess we have to consider what it was that Leica promised to produce, then we have to find a way to measure our lenses against Leica's promise. Perhaps my lens was more contrasty and more colorful as there was something initially wrong with the coating, and the "right" coating gave it better CVF resistance, but it took away some of the contrast and color magic I was seening. If that is in fact the case, I would never have sent the lens in in the first place, as I could deal with the crippling flare if I learned to shoot the lens in only specific conditions, but I cannot now deal with a lens that is duller and less contrasty (that still has CVF a bit). Anyone have ideas on how we can go about measuring? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FPB Posted February 9, 2014 Share #733 Posted February 9, 2014 ... Anyone have ideas on how we can go about measuring? I fear we all have to wait until a first batch of the "new" Apo50 shows up on the market. Then try to compare it with a "working" copy of the first batch. I think Leica will never release a note on this issue. I would never ever send my copy in for "repair" right now, it's my best lens. I wait for the second batch, compare, and decide later. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted February 9, 2014 Share #734 Posted February 9, 2014 There are now (at least) three users with modified versions of the 50APO - Scott Root, JHellow and dewilde - that state they will chime in on experiences with the modified version of the lens. Put together, this may serve as a rough guide to what we can expect from V2 of the lens. I am particularly interested in learning whether improved flare resistance (if any at all) deteriorates contrast and color, as reported by dewilde. Thanks to all that have experiences one way or the other! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 9, 2014 Share #735 Posted February 9, 2014 I will not send in my copy unless I am assured it will perform as today with whatever is "improved". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewilde Posted February 10, 2014 Share #736 Posted February 10, 2014 Picking up today. 50APO: optics reflexes we make test pictures to test quality And just for reference I sent in my M240 (frame line and focus issues) along with a bunch of other lenses.. here's what they said for the 50 Noctilux which was just slightly back focusing (body problem I'm sure) 50 Noctilux: optical adjustment digital M SOOOO I don't really know what's going on, as it says something different for all my lenses (5 total).. I'm hoping that everything is aligned properly and works as it should. And I'm also hoping that "optics reflexes" (which only showed up for the 50apo on the repair sheet they emailed me) means they actually fixed my 50APO this time. Will advise in a few days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted February 10, 2014 Share #737 Posted February 10, 2014 Picking up today. 50APO: optics reflexes we make test pictures to test quality And just for reference I sent in my M240 (frame line and focus issues) along with a bunch of other lenses.. here's what they said for the 50 Noctilux which was just slightly back focusing (body problem I'm sure) 50 Noctilux: optical adjustment digital M SOOOO I don't really know what's going on, as it says something different for all my lenses (5 total).. I'm hoping that everything is aligned properly and works as it should. And I'm also hoping that "optics reflexes" (which only showed up for the 50apo on the repair sheet they emailed me) means they actually fixed my 50APO this time. Will advise in a few days. Can you imagine getting such a crap repair report from your car mechanic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay B Posted February 10, 2014 Share #738 Posted February 10, 2014 I will not send in my copy unless I am assured it will perform as today with whatever is "improved". Same here. My 50AA seems to be perfect in all aspects, so I am very leery of sending it in without knowing what is being done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
platypus Posted February 10, 2014 Share #739 Posted February 10, 2014 My 50AA seems to be perfect in all aspects, so I am very leery of sending it in without knowing what is being done. I agree...it's not worth the risk. Oh dear...but there shouldn't be a risk! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewilde Posted February 10, 2014 Share #740 Posted February 10, 2014 Just got my M and lenses back after almost a month. First thing I noticed, they didn't adjust the RF mechanism, the lenses still back focus (sigh).. Second thing I noticed is that the frame lines weren't adjusted AT ALL... Did Leica even touch my camera? Or was my camera sent around the world for fun? Third thing I noticed, my 50APO hood is still loose from the first time I sent it in, and my aperture ring is SOOO loose, looser then before, and I specifically asked them to tighten it. I can't tell if there are problems with the optics or not, as I was so annoyed with the initial inspection I left it at home and went out for a nice meal to calm myself down. Funny thing is, they tightened the focusing on the 75APO and 50LUX-asph so tight they're hard to turn quick. The 50 Noctilux looks like new for some weird reason (do they clean these things with gasoline?) And they didn't touch the wide angles at all.. It seems that the button on the camera that controls the pin for removing the lenses is sticky now, and makes a clicking noise when I press it?! Which is strange, as they didn't adjust my camera one bit! Lastly, WAY MORE DUST IN THE LENSES NOW!! Maybe all the construction dust from the new building? At this point I'm thinking of just buying a new M240.. I guess just making sure to check the focusing accuracy before buying would be the only way to get a calibrated M240 it seems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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