With friends like this, who needs enemies?

[erlingmm]

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In retrospect, after the release of the X Vario, and reviews by Steve Huff, LuLa, Ming Thein, and several hands on reports, one has to reflect on the role of this forum, and the mob function of hordes of arm-chair CEOs and self-imposed "experts" who doomed the camera without having touched or tried it.

 

How much harm has this forum made for this model, that seems to really be a gem?

 

Overpriced? Yes, like D-lux 3,4,5,6 etc. But it seems to really deliver on the most important factor: Picture quality. I am starting to want one myself...

 

But if I were Leica, I would look elsewhere for advice than this forum, which in my opinion has shown a total lack of judgement, despite several sensible voices.

[sfage]

Let us not forget that the people you mentioned also make a living from writing those articles... and what allows them to do that, is manufacturers sending them cameras.

 

Second, the issues brought up in this forum come from clients... people that "want" to buy their products. I am one of those people. But, sadly, it seems they are hard pressed to make something that delivers what I need. A full-frame sensor and viewfinder, for example. I have even said that I would buy a Leica for double the money, but not TRIPLE the money... for what is, a "lateral move".

[bill]

...

Second, the issues brought up in this forum come from clients... people that "want" to buy their products. I am one of those people. But, sadly, it seems they are hard pressed to make something that delivers what I need. ...

 

Ditto.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[earleygallery]

Apparently criticism has been much more vicious on other forums. However I doubt that Leica listen to much if any of it. They have other ways to do their Market research.

 

That said, it's a free world and I certainly don't come here to work as an unpaid promoter for Leica. What do you want, just lots of people saying "wow looks a great new Leica product!" even if they don't really think so?

 

Nor do I think that one has to actually use a camera before deciding that it's lacking, or not for them. For example, I know that I won't spend that much money for a camera that lacks a viewfinder, but I do realise that there are people who will.

 

You're welcome to disagree and post as many positive comments as you like.

[baretta]

Want full frame and VF, no problem, u can buy leica M.

[sfage]

Want full frame and VF, no problem, u can buy leica M.

 

Read the part of the last sentence:

 

" not TRIPLE the money... for what is, a "lateral move".

[k-hawinkler]

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Want full frame and VF, no problem, u can buy leica M.

 

 

Well, I am trying since September 19...

[Guest badbob]

Read the part of the last sentence:" not TRIPLE the money... for what is, a "lateral move".

 

I don't know about triple. The XV includes a zoom that even the 'M's don't have available, and what does this Leica zoom cost? 1.4 (not 2, not 3) times the cost of the X2. How much more do you have to pay for a Leica with viewfinder and full frame sensor and just a fixed lens? At least 4 times as much as the XV. That should make the XV an incredible bargain (in the Leica universe of course). That for me is the irony in all of the arguing - I don't understand how $2850 compared to the very next step up at $12000 is a bad deal.

[bill]

It's not about the price, albeit value for money may enter into it.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[dkCambridgeshire]

In retrospect, after the release of the X Vario, and reviews by Steve Huff, LuLa, Ming Thein, and several hands on reports, one has to reflect on the role of this forum, and the mob function of hordes of arm-chair CEOs and self-imposed "experts" who doomed the camera without having touched or tried it.

 

How much harm has this forum made for this model, that seems to really be a gem?

 

Overpriced? Yes, like D-lux 3,4,5,6 etc. But it seems to really deliver on the most important factor: Picture quality. I am starting to want one myself...

 

But if I were Leica, I would look elsewhere for advice than this forum, which in my opinion has shown a total lack of judgement, despite several sensible voices.

 

More a 'gross' rather than 'total' lack of judgement ... some members have been more objective and have tried to communicate the camera's strengths. Much of the trashing has come from those with preconceived ideas about what they think should be possible but which is actually impossible eg those expecting a much faster and wider range zoom lens on an APS-C compact camera. Unfortunately even when the folly of their expectations has been pointed out, some of them still insist that they know better than Leica. They try and use the Digilux 2 as a benchmark to justify their beliefs. They still insist that the X Vario should have as fast a lens as the Digilux 2. They still insist that a built in EVF would have created a better camera. They do not realise that built in EVFs = built in obsolescence. They do not fully understand that fast wide range zoom lenses are only possible on compact cameras with relatively tiny sensors. They do not understand that such tiny sensors can never deliver the differential focus of larger formats. And then there is the 'never give credit - always criticise' contingency who seldom have a good word to say about any new Leica product - and who still appear to think that the only Leica cameras worth having are Leica film cameras.

 

But somehow, despite all the criticism, Leica Camera AG manages to maintain its dignity.

 

Those wise words, "If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you" come to mind.

 

dunk

[dkCambridgeshire]

Apologies for the typo in above reply ... 'contingency' s/b 'contingent'

 

dunk

[pgk]

But if I were Leica, I would look elsewhere for advice than this forum.....

I'm sure that they are. The cognoscenti will always complain when the young thoroughbred fails to meet their standards and expectations;). This camera is what it is - a fixed zoom digital compact. Why it has to have utra-high specifications in order to take good images baffles me. Its not a camera that I would buy for a variety of reasons and raising its specification would not address these, so I'm able to sit back, watch the antics and smile bemusedly (or smugly for those who wish to see it this way:D). I suspect that it will sell well......

[iforum]

Only Dunk knows all the rest of us are mere fools.

[sblitz]

if leica had advertised the product as a super x rather than a mini m the negative reaction would not have been so great. being mislead is, i believe, what has people's knickers in a twist,

[sfage]

I don't know about triple. "[...] I don't understand how $2850 compared to the very next step up at $12000 is a bad deal.

 

 

I have a 5d2. I can print -without any hesitation, whatsoever- 24X36 inches. I use my Leica glass upon my 5d2. I bought the 5d for $2,000. I bought the elmarit 60 for 250 euros. I bought the 28mm elmarit for $400.

 

I am still below the price of the X with two excellent lenses on top of that... and I have a FF sensor and a VF... and it does absolutely everything I need it to do.

 

How much is an M240? How much do the two lenses cost me to replace, and, or, mount them upon the M240? Is the M240 so -absolutely- significantly better than what I have now?

 

If someone reads what I just said and comes back with the standard talking points:

 

1) It's not a rangefinder

2) I don't like the colours

 

My response will be:

 

1) I couldn't care less if it is a rangefinder. I am more concerned about the composition, than HOW the composition is made. I don't go to an orchestra concert and hear a premiere of a new piece, then ask the composer what kind of pencils or notation software he uses. Asking that question would make me an asshole.

 

2) The colours that come out of your camera are not your responsibility. The colours that come out of your *printer* ARE your responsibility.

 

If a person complains about the colours that come out of their camera, then they have just admitted publicly, that they do not know colour. They have just admitted that they must rely upon an engineer -across the Atlantic ocean- to make the colours in their photograph FOR them. If that is the case, I would strongly advise that person to never take up painting upon canvas. Essentially, if that person does not know colour, then he should stop making photographs until he does.

 

So, getting back to what I have said SO many times on these forums: I would like to support this company. I will pay double (approximately 4-4500) for a machine that still enables me to shoot and print what I want. If they refuse to make that machine, I will go on with a 5d2 or move up (slightly) to a d800... for several thousand dollars LESS than an M240.

[Carduelis]

I have a 5d2. I can print -without any hesitation, whatsoever- 24X36 inches. I use my Leica glass upon my 5d2. I bought the 5d for $2,000. I bought the elmarit 60 for 250 euros. I bought the 28mm elmarit for $400.

 

I am still below the price of the X with two excellent lenses on top of that... and I have a FF sensor and a VF... and it does absolutely everything I need it to do.

 

 

You seem to be assuming that your photographic tendencies should be the most sensible way forward for everyone, I know the facts above are absolutely true, but I want small and compactness and optical quality embodied in a useful zoom range with autofocus on a decent sized sensor and I am willing to pay the price for the X Vario. I also see an advantage to having a fixed zoom lens as ridding me of having to deal with dust on the sensor by avoiding having to change lenses.

 

In another post, I have already pointed out that I have traded in a Canon 5D and two quality L zoom lenses to finance the X Vario,.. why ?? because they are large and heavy and I don't want to tote them around anymore in my rucksack when I am travelling or hiking. Infact I don't use them any more. If you are doing a strenous hike, you are already looking at about 2.5 kg just for containers of 2 litres of water. A Canon 5D plus 24-105 mm zoom lens weighs about 1.6 kg and takes up alot of rucksack space compared to about 650 g for the X Vario. If the X Vario lens performs like my Leica M lenses on my 1.5x cropped sensor Ricoh GXR, I know the quality will be good enough for sharp A3 sized prints which will satisfy me. From testing before and after purchasing the X Vario,I firmly believe this will be the case.

[jaapv]

More a 'gross' rather than 'total' lack of judgement ... some members have been more objective and have tried to communicate the camera's strengths. Much of the trashing has come from those with preconceived ideas about what they think should be possible but which is actually impossible eg those expecting a much faster and wider range zoom lens on an APS-C compact camera. Unfortunately even when the folly of their expectations has been pointed out, some of them still insist that they know better than Leica. They try and use the Digilux 2 as a benchmark to justify their beliefs. They still insist that the X Vario should have as fast a lens as the Digilux 2. They still insist that a built in EVF would have created a better camera. They do not realise that built in EVFs = built in obsolescence. They do not fully understand that fast wide range zoom lenses are only possible on compact cameras with relatively tiny sensors. They do not understand that such tiny sensors can never deliver the differential focus of larger formats. And then there is the 'never give credit - always criticise' contingency who seldom have a good word to say about any new Leica product - and who still appear to think that the only Leica cameras worth having are Leica film cameras.

 

But somehow, despite all the criticism, Leica Camera AG manages to maintain its dignity.

 

Those wise words, "If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you" come to mind.

 

dunk

We used to have a Prime Minister - who was not half as foolish as he behaved- who used to say: "The dogs bark, but the Caravan moves on"

[colonel]

But somehow, despite all the criticism, Leica Camera AG manages to maintain its dignity.

 

throwing up

 

Objective critism is good, otherwise Leica is dead in the water

Lots of people were expecting an interchangeable lens and didn't get it.

The X-Vario is a nice camera but, for the price, its not hitting many folk's hot spot

I suspect the target market is not camera enthusiasts, Ming Thein has a good grasp of the target market.

 

We just to face that and move on

[pgk]

I suspect the target market is not camera enthusiasts......

And perhaps that is exactly why it has caused such a lot of negative comments in photo forums. Personally I see nothing wrong in supplying such a product to 'lesser mortals' than us;).

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[dkCambridgeshire]

Only Dunk knows all the rest of us are mere fools.

 

There's a lot of poor judgement about - that's for sure. To infer that I think people are fools is a bit silly ... but maybe the inference is based on similar logic to that used to try and trash the camera.

 

dunk