farnz Posted June 9, 2013 Share #41 Posted June 9, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Jaap, I assume that you're aware that (even though you may still prefer to) you don't need to move from A to a particular shutter speed to invoke exposure compensation because it can be invoked in one third stops by pressing the focus button the front while rolling the focus wheel with your thumb? (I'm not trying to insult your knowledge or expertise, it's something that I only recently discovered myself.) Personally I find this method faster and preferable because you can still see the shutter speed in the viewfinder and check changes in the exposure value of elements in the scene as the light changes by moving the camera around, which you can't easily do with a set shutter speed once the centre dot disappears and you're left with just triangles. Does this help to reduce your objection to auto-ISO working with manually selected shutter speeds? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 9, 2013 Posted June 9, 2013 Hi farnz, Take a look here AUTO ISO issue with M240. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
viramati Posted June 9, 2013 Share #42 Posted June 9, 2013 Jaap, I assume that you're aware that (even though you may still prefer to) you don't need to move from A to a particular shutter speed to invoke exposure compensation because it can be invoked in one third stops by pressing the focus button the front while rolling the focus wheel with your thumb? (I'm not trying to insult your knowledge or expertise, it's something that I only recently discovered myself.) Personally I find this method faster and preferable because you can still see the shutter speed in the viewfinder and check changes in the exposure value of elements in the scene as the light changes by moving the camera around, which you can't easily do with a set shutter speed once the centre dot disappears and you're left with just triangles. Does this help to reduce your objection to auto-ISO working with manually selected shutter speeds? Pete. Discovered this as well by chance and makes compensation real easy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 9, 2013 Share #43 Posted June 9, 2013 No insult . My M is in the mail somewhere between Solms and the Dutch border I guess. That is indeed interesting. It doesn't help for panoramas, though, but as that is a more leisurely pursuit it should not matter too much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted June 9, 2013 Share #44 Posted June 9, 2013 Only on those that don't read what I write ... Oh, I did read what you wrote. But it doesn't make sense. An extra set-up menu to tell the camera that Auto-ISO is supposed to be auto is neither needed nor called-for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 9, 2013 Share #45 Posted June 9, 2013 So you want an ISO dial? I guess that makes some sense if you regard ISO as an equivalent parameter to aperture and shutter speed. In that case the controls should be equivalent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted June 9, 2013 Share #46 Posted June 9, 2013 So you want an ISO dial? Yes, please! I guess that makes some sense if you regard ISO as an equivalent parameter to aperture and shutter speed. Yes, of course I do. Everybody does. Because it is. You don't!? In that case the controls should be equivalent. They should be indeed—and on analog cameras, they are. The fact that they aren't on most digital cameras (which is ironic) does not change the logic behind it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 9, 2013 Share #47 Posted June 9, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Olaf - much as I like to disagree with both you an Jaap, I read his comments to mean he would welcome "our" version AND "his" version via a selection in the menu. At present it's set how he likes it. Like a canon coming with back button focus set as default without the option to disable it would annoy a lot of users. If an option was there in menu (like back button is) we'd all be happy, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted June 9, 2013 Share #48 Posted June 9, 2013 So you want an ISO dial? ... Yes, please! ... . Well you have one. Press the ISO button with your left thumb and roll the focus wheel with your right thumb. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 9, 2013 Share #49 Posted June 9, 2013 As a corollary to the ISO dial. I would love an external one and do consider it an equivalent exposure setting .... for now. However, I think it will become almost irrelevant as sensor tech increases. Aperture is a physical thing, as is shutter speed, not much room for tech advancement. But when I shoot my X100s on Auto ISO at max 6400 it almost is irrelevant. I then set my A and T to suit artistic demands (withing reason and with exposure knowledge obviously). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted June 9, 2013 Share #50 Posted June 9, 2013 Well you have one. Press the ISO button with your left thumb and roll the focus wheel with your right thumb. Pete. It would be great if they could bring back the iso setting screen as in the M9 it was so much qicker to use Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted June 9, 2013 Share #51 Posted June 9, 2013 They should be indeed—and on analog cameras, they are. The ISO dial on the M6 for instance, only influences the light meter. Changing ISO like in a digital camera, takes more time than turning a dial. But on the whole I tend to think in three parameters all the time when exposing: Aperture, Exposure Time and ISO, so easy accessible ISO setting is important to me. With three parameters either manual or auto, there are eight possible settings a camera can have in principle. Of these eight, three are availabe in the M (typ 240), four in the M9. Whether that is a limitation depends on the photographer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 9, 2013 Share #52 Posted June 9, 2013 Yes, of course I do. Everybody does. Because it is. You don't!? Well, for the final exposure in practical use yes, but the aperture and shutter speed control the amount of light entering the camera, whilst the ISO setting controls the amount of amplification of the signal. So there is a difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tanks Posted June 9, 2013 Share #53 Posted June 9, 2013 Well you have one. Press the ISO button with your left thumb and roll the focus wheel with your right thumb. Pete. That would be great if the ISO values would display on the viewfinder as one is changing them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 9, 2013 Share #54 Posted June 9, 2013 Yes, of course I do. Everybody does. Because it is. You don't!? I don’t. Aperture and shutter speed are exposure parameters – they determine how much light reaches the sensor between the opening and the closing of the shutter. No other parameter does, most certainly not the ISO setting. Rather the ISO setting informs the camera of how much light is required for a proper exposure. (The ISO setting may also influence analogue or digital amplification of the sensor data, but when it does that has no bearing on exposure.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted June 9, 2013 Share #55 Posted June 9, 2013 That would be great if the ISO values would display on the viewfinder as one is changing them. True, but then you don't have that benefit either with Auto-ISO either. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted June 9, 2013 Share #56 Posted June 9, 2013 Jaap and Michael, you both use the same argument that aperture and exposure time determine exposure and ISO does not. But wether some control on a camera should preferably be easy to change or have an option to be set to auto, is not determined by differences in principles of image formation, but on the practice of getting the photograph you want. In that sense ISO setting is not essentially different from aperture or exposure time for the photographer on location. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted June 9, 2013 Share #57 Posted June 9, 2013 Jaap and Michael, you both use the same argument that aperture and exposure time determine exposure and ISO does not. But wether some control on a camera should preferably be easy to change or have an option to be set to auto, is not determined by differences in principles of image formation, but on the practice of getting the photograph you want. In that sense ISO setting is not essentially different from aperture or exposure time for the photographer on location. Absolutely!! I'm not really interested in the semantics of the this discussion but practicality of the implementation of auto iso which in it's current form is not particularly helpful Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 9, 2013 Share #58 Posted June 9, 2013 I'm shocked, shocked to find that semantic pedantry is going on in here! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted June 9, 2013 Share #59 Posted June 9, 2013 I don’t. Aperture and shutter speed are exposure parameters—they determine how much light reaches the sensor between the opening and the closing of the shutter. No other parameter does, most certainly not the ISO setting. Yes ... so what? ISO determines how much light the sensor needs for a proper exposure. So—from a photographer's point of view (as opposed to an engineer's slightly different point of view)—this most definitely is another exposure parameter. It's the result that counts, not the way you got there. Rather the ISO setting informs the camera of how much light is required for a proper exposure. This is true for film—because here, changing the ISO setting won't actually change the film's sensitivity. But a digital camera is fundamentally different in this regard, as the ISO setting does change how the sensor will respond to exposure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 9, 2013 Share #60 Posted June 9, 2013 Which brings us back to: When shutter speed and aperture are fixed and the user selects Auto from the ISO list... it doesn't work, it is broken. The display reads out "AUTO" but, ISO remains fixed. p.s. Jaap - I get a kick out of you describing how you use a camera you don't own. How do you really know how you are going to use it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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