danedit28 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share #21 Posted May 31, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thank you to everyone for your responses. Fortunately, Leica NJ is at least showing signs of wanting to help. Unfortunately, they are not yet set up to service the typ 240 in-house but they are helping me expedite the process of getting the new M off to Germany as quick as possible. And since my M9 is arriving at Leica NJ *today* for sensor cleaning, they agreed to help rush that service so I can at least have one M(x) in my hands for our trip in 3 weeks. Good ideas with comparing the RF to the LV.. I'll quickly test that before I package it up. Thanks! -dan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 31, 2013 Posted May 31, 2013 Hi danedit28, Take a look here New M 240 focus is off?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
danedit28 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share #22 Posted May 31, 2013 FWIW, I set up the test again.... Tripod, eyepiece magnifier, ruler... but this time I put the ruler on its side so I could use its tick marks as vertical focus aids, angled away from the camera like the others had posted in their examples. Through the rangefinder, I'm locked in on the 37" tick. But when I switch on the LiveView, activate the focus aid and zoom in 10x, it is locked in on approx the 38" tick mark. It's really impressive that to see the focal plane include more ticks on the ruler as I close the aperture (and re-focus, of course). Unfortunately, I believe this ultimately confirms the RF calibration error as what I'm seeing through the LV vs. the RF is precisely the error I was seeing in my photos from yesterday. Sending it back today! Thanks, -dan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted May 31, 2013 Share #23 Posted May 31, 2013 While the M is gone, send your len(es) to NJ for calibration, just in case. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted May 31, 2013 Share #24 Posted May 31, 2013 I was told that the M240 rangefinder calibration at the factory has been tweaked to be more consistently perfect out of the box. But it seems that the old saying holds true, that "foolproof is proportional to the fool" and the M240's rangefinder is not immune to lapses in QC. My M9's rangefinder was woefully out of whack when it arrived, not only the infinity adjustment but the gain (arc sweep of the arm) also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymc226 Posted May 31, 2013 Share #25 Posted May 31, 2013 Both my M9-P and MM were out of spec as well out of the box. Leica NJ fixed the M9 but it took 3 weeks to get it back. Though the MM was still in warranty, I dropped it off at Steve's Camera Repair in LA in the morning and picked it up later the same day fully and correctly calibrated. With the new M, I haven't checked at all. I attached the EVF even before attaching the lens and it has stayed on; got 2 extra batteries as well as it is supposed to drain the battery more quickly. Now my Noctilux and 90 Cron ASPH shots are all in focus:). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted May 31, 2013 Share #26 Posted May 31, 2013 If you intend to have a long term relationship with M series cameras and want to avoid endless frustration I strongly suggest biting the bullet and learning how to self adjust. It is an antique mechanism which is time consuming and fiddly (but not difficult) to adjust precisely and the only one with the time and inclination that can do it to the accuracy you require is yourself. It will need adjustment in time after knocks and use anyway, and you will save you weeks of waiting and the strong possibility it may not be perfect when you get it back. As far as I am concerned, RF adjustment is like sensor cleaning ..... just something that needs doing now and then and is no big deal..... My M240 is the only M that has been within the tolerances I find acceptable so far (out of 5 digital M series cameras) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danedit28 Posted June 1, 2013 Author Share #27 Posted June 1, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) As far as I am concerned, RF adjustment is like sensor cleaning ..... just something that needs doing now and then and is no big deal..... Roll your eyes all you want. But the camera should not be delivered brand new with a filthy sensor. Just like it shouldn't be delivered with the rangefinder off kilter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirekti Posted June 1, 2013 Share #28 Posted June 1, 2013 If you intend to have a long term relationship with M series cameras and want to avoid endless frustration I strongly suggest biting the bullet and learning how to self adjust. If you'll ever do it again please make a video. I'm sure many would go this way, but not sure where to start. These steps seem easy, but I would gather much more courage, if I saw it in a video. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/132070-trying-understand-rangefinder-misalignment.html#post1387557 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted June 1, 2013 Share #29 Posted June 1, 2013 For a new camera I suggest keeping in mind that adjusting the rangefinder yourself would void the warranty. Advice from everyone of us in the forum is free of course and that is its legal value should you have a problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Lummes Posted June 1, 2013 Share #30 Posted June 1, 2013 My 240 was certainly off when I received it. So much that that I decided to make proper tools and adjust it myself, because it was not possible to use lenses wide open and get proper focus. The arm length is fairly tricky to adjust, but I got it right eventually. Then came the lug problem call back and I sent all my Leica lenses to be calibrated with the camera and now the system is pretty good although not perfect. I guess it never will be 100% perfect with several lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted June 1, 2013 Share #31 Posted June 1, 2013 Roll your eyes all you want. But the camera should not be delivered brand new with a filthy sensor. Just like it shouldn't be delivered with the rangefinder off kilter. Agreed. The general consensus is that a much higher percentage of M240's are spot on then previous M's. If Leica use a standard 100% perfect lens and compare Liveview and Manual focussing there is really no excuse for a camera leaving the factory with miscalibration being missed. I suspect ...... but have no way of knowing ..... that Leica are now using 'genuine' infinity to calibrate ..... in the factory M9 video they check using a series of sloping targets .... but the furthest cannot be more than 20m..... so it is not really an electric pylon 2km away which I would use at home.... and if it is not spot on at 20m things can be way off at other distances. I don't know what sort of jig or procedure they use to do the original adjustment .... but clearly either a much higher percentage are arriving at QC well calibrated.... or QC are better at intercepting the duds.... Any alteration to the near or infinity point puts the other out, so you end up see-sawing back and forth till you get both right. I might have all afternoon to do this, but an assembly technician doesn't.... and at some point they clearly say 'thats good enough' and send it on it's way.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted June 1, 2013 Share #32 Posted June 1, 2013 I don't follow the logic in that at all. That is anecdotal that calibration is better or worse now with the new body. We only have a small sample from Forum members posting thus far of course. I have not personally seen this done in Solms since 2009 . I'm not aware of any change to their calibration procedures since then though. I would be interested to hear if anyone has new facts on that. The rig including the sloping targets, laser measuring and specialised computer program does not extend to infinity, certainly. Given the depth of field I don't see how that could be precise anyway. I thought from memory the furthest target was at maybe 8 or 10 metres.. The existing rig captures video feed through the eyepiece. I don't see how the Liveview image could be adjusted but I guessit could now be compared. I don't know at what point the infinity position is set. I think I have read here previously that the mechanism has two adjustments? That's fine I have no reason to doubt it. However variation at the close distances where there is little DoF surely affects the accuracy. Based only on practical experience I have seen M cameras (just one actually) where the RF image was not exactly coincident at practical infinity with many of my lenses but mis-calibration in close is where errors can be important. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupico Posted June 2, 2013 Share #33 Posted June 2, 2013 Leica cameras and lenses should be calibrated together to be sure of perfect results. It is not uncommon for full frame cameras in general to show slight off-focus when this has not been done. Even Canon Service told me to bring all lenses with my 5dII a couple of years ago. You can micro-adjust in-camera with the recent models of Canon, Nikon and others to avoid having to have it serviced all the time. But you can either be very lucky and have good enough calibration or maybe never notice anything is wrong (e.g. slight back or front focus). Leica rangefinders are very prone to changes in accuracy over time anyway. If you accidentally knock them slightly or if there are sudden changes in temperature - that might be enough to put focus off. Having the equipment calibrated once a while is necessary IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 2, 2013 Share #34 Posted June 2, 2013 Leica cameras and lenses should be calibrated together to be sure of perfect results. be enough to put focus off. Post #20, second sentence....just to be sure you understand why. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupico Posted June 2, 2013 Share #35 Posted June 2, 2013 Post #20, second sentence....just to be sure you understand why. Jeff It is not always the camera body that is the reason for focus problems. Sometimes it is the lenses that need to be adjusted (although this may be less common). Just looking at one component would not be enough. That is why they should be calibrated at the same time to be sure to get the perfect results. All items have to be tested and adjusted to specifications. I think there can be no misinterpretation with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 2, 2013 Share #36 Posted June 2, 2013 It is not always the camera body that is the reason for focus problems. Sometimes it is the lenses that need to be adjusted (although this may be less common). Just looking at one component would not be enough. That is why they should be calibrated at the same time to be sure to get the perfect results. All items have to be tested and adjusted to specifications. I think there can be no misinterpretation with that. You're repeating back what I explained. The point is that many people think the camera and lens are calibrated together, as a system. They're not; they're calibrated independently, each against a standard. It's wise to send everything in so that all components are on spec. Period. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupico Posted June 2, 2013 Share #37 Posted June 2, 2013 You're repeating back what I explained. The point is that many people think the camera and lens are calibrated together, as a system. They're not; they're calibrated independently, each against a standard. It's wise to send everything in so that all components are on spec. Period. Jeff And I said you misinterpreted what I wrote. But if it makes you feel better. PERIOD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 2, 2013 Share #38 Posted June 2, 2013 And I said you misinterpreted what I wrote. I didn't try to interpret what you wrote; I merely was trying to make sure you understood what I wrote earlier. If you did, fine. That's all you had to say. If you read the whole thread, you'll see that I was the one who recommended that the OP send in his lens in addition to his camera, for the same reasons you mention. But they could be sent in separately, at different times, and the result would be the same. That's all I meant. Many folks don't understand that, and that's exactly what I said to you; I never said that YOU didn't understand that. Get it? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danedit28 Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share #39 Posted June 3, 2013 Brief Update: Really pleased with the Leica NJ team thus far. Since I have a number of assignments approaching very quickly, they paid to rush my M240 back to NJ and will be rushing it to Germany for calibration. They've also indicated that they would help expedite the sensor cleaning on my M9 so I can have that back as soon as possible. Even if they don't meet my requested deadlines, I appreciate the positive attitude, willingness to offer an apology, and general concern for my needs. And this was all before they even learned my name. The Leica M cameras are worth the money alone by the images they produce. But then you factor in their good customer service and you find even more value in your investment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danedit28 Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share #40 Posted June 7, 2013 Just received my M9 back after just a day or two at Leica NJ and WOW that sensor super clean! Fortunately this was covered in the 2-year warranty but that's a service I would definitely pay for in the future. Quick turn-around and expert care. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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