jrc Posted April 2, 2007 Share #1 Posted April 2, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I sent my Sudden Death M8 to NJ on March 5, and today got back a replacement -- I hope serial numbers don't mean too much, because the new one is numbered about 1100 LOWER than the old one. Other than the packing slip, there was not a single thing in the box. (I am grateful to get the camera, because I really missed using it, but I need some guidance.) If there's a general feeling that Sudden Death comes from some combination of battery/charger problems, do I just slam the old batteries, charged with the old charger, into the new body? Maybe I should order a new charger, if I can find one? I'm so happy to have it back, I'd hate to wreck it again...but what's the point in having it back if I can't use it? On the other hand, what's the point in having it back if I blow it up again? Another question, for technical people. I know zilch about electronics -- I majored in history. Is there a kind of common testing meter that I could buy at a place like Radio Shack, that I could put on the batteries to determine whether they are fully charged? And if so, what would that meter reading be? Any recommendations? JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Hi jrc, Take a look here M8 replaced -- now what?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted April 2, 2007 Share #2 Posted April 2, 2007 John You could buy a voltmeter ("multi-meter") and test between the 2nd and 6th contacts when you are looking at the battery with the connections facing down. A fully charged battery should read 4.15 - 4.2 volts. To get at the contacts, make "blades" out of kitchen foil to slide into the contacts but be very careful not to short the two together. That will blow the intermal fuse and the battery will be a write-off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted April 2, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted April 2, 2007 Mark, I'm doing as suggested before plugging the batteries into the camera. I bought a multimeter. I had three batteries, not on the charger, waiting for the camera to get back. I used two very short peicees of flattened copper (took a piece of small guage electric wire and flattened with a hammer) as blades to reach the contacts. Two of the batteries read 4.13v, the other 1.49. Would a bit of resistance in the wire account for the first two being lower than 4.15-4.2? Or the fact that the batteries haven't been freshly charged? The other battery, that came in at 1.49, may be the last battery I took out of the camera after the Sudden Death. I'm charging that one now, and will see what happens. (I'll charge all three during the course of the day, and remeasure them all.) Thanks for your help. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 2, 2007 Share #4 Posted April 2, 2007 John The resistance of the cables will not be important because there is next to no current flowing, so you are measuring the true output of the battery. The 4.13v is a bit low, you could put it back in the charger and measure the voltage when the yellow light goes out which will represent the maximum you'll get. Depending on how long ago the battery was charged, the voltage will have decayed a little. There's an adjustment in the charger which sets to ultimate charging voltage and I believe this should be 4.20v +/- 0.05v. I've just measured a partly discharged battery which shows just one segment on the M8 display and the voltage is 3.76v "off load". The 1.49 battery is therefore very suspect - the camera should shut down long before the voltage reaches this level to protect the battery from deep discharge which requires very careful charging to recover from and the Leica "brick" may not be smart enough. I think you are safe putting the 4.13v battery in the camera, but I would be wary of the 1.49 battery until it is showing the correct voltage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted April 2, 2007 Share #5 Posted April 2, 2007 they might have seconded your M8 for deep testing i know if i was them thats what i would do and send you a new replacement but is it just possible its the batteries after all ? either the battery or the charger is very suspect i think, just a hunch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted April 2, 2007 Share #6 Posted April 2, 2007 Yes, be very wary of the batteries. My experience might tell you something. I received my M8 mid-January. After just 24 hours of use, it died and would not recover. I sent it to Solms and they replaced the electronics, put the same top plate back on, and returned it to me with the same battery and charger. That camera worked for 8 days, then also shut down. Back to Solms, where the same process was repeated. The camera that was returned worked for about 1 1/2 days, then also died. One of the constants in this whole mess was that each time I got the same battery and charger back. After the third time, I told them under no circumstances would I accept anything from the original kit and that I wanted everything replaced, including my spare batteries. It is supposed to ship from Solms first thing this morning. I know one other person who had two failures in which the electronics were replaced, as mine were, but the same battery and charger came back. He is also now insisting on the battery and charger being replaced. I have a strong feeling that a lot of headaches in Solms could be alleviated by getting a different supplier for the batteries and chargers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colorflow Posted April 2, 2007 Share #7 Posted April 2, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Very interesting... As described in another thread, my sudden death M8 recovered at Solms after having the battery out for so long. Did any of you tried leaving the battery out for a few days? I just measured my two batteries, one is just under 4v, the other 3.9v. Am charging them now to see if they will come up. They were both drained and fully re-charged 5 weeks ago attempting to recover the M8. Would storing for 5 weeks drain down to < 4v? Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted April 2, 2007 Author Share #8 Posted April 2, 2007 I charged all three batteries, and all three batteries were showing at 4.15v. I put one in the camera, which is acting normally. I will leave the battery in overnight, after shooting a dozen or so shots tonight, and tomorrow morning, I'll measure the one in the camera and also the two that are not in the camera, to see if there's any change at all. There shouldn't be, right? I'll do the camera battery before I turn the camera on. I'll continue like this for a while, on a daily basis, and see if anything changes on the batteries in the process... JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 3, 2007 Share #9 Posted April 3, 2007 JC, I think that's a good plan, you should see very little difference in the unused battery but it will be interesting to see what the battery in the camera shows - the camera should switch off once the battery gets to a certain voltage to prevent it going into deep discharge. Is the one in the camera the one which got down to 1.49v? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted April 3, 2007 Author Share #10 Posted April 3, 2007 Mark: The one in the camera is NOT the one that got to 1.49. I was a bit afraid of that one (my #1 battery.) I put in my #2, which should be a good one, while the #1 and #3 sit out. Also, you misunderstood a bit, at least on this first night. I'm not leaving the camera on to run the battery down (at least not yet.) I'm just leaving the battery in the camera, with the camera turned off, to make sure there is nothing at all going on in that switch position. Which seems really unlikely, but I might as well do this methodically, and some people have reported failures as they turn a camera back on. Tomorrow, when I get up, I'll check all three batteries, and then I'll do some shooting on the #2 battery to make sure everything is working well, and then, if I get up the guts, I'll let the #2 battery run down in the camera. Then I'll recharge it, and see if the charge holds, and how the charger behaves with a down battery.. Then I'll follow the same procedures with the other two batteries. Unless Solms calls me up and tells me I'm out of my mind. Mr. Solms? Anybody? JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 3, 2007 Share #11 Posted April 3, 2007 Yes, sorry, I misunderstood you. It's a good plan to approach it methodically, changing just one thing at a time until you see a change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted April 3, 2007 Share #12 Posted April 3, 2007 John, I am waiting anxiously about your report back! Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted April 3, 2007 Share #13 Posted April 3, 2007 Mark, you seem to know the most about Li-Ion chargers, is this a reasonable plan for checking out battery, charger, and camera limiter function? 1) mark all batteries so you know which is which (just scratch marks with a sharp tool will do). 2) for each battery, a) charge it until the yellow light goes off, measure voltage, then shoot with it when convenient, run the battery down until the camera shuts off (set auto shutdown time to OFF). measure voltage and then c) recharge, measuring voltage when the yellow light goes off. What should be the voltage at which the camera shuts off, from your experiments? (1.5 V sounds very low.) Let's share some experimental information on this. It looks to me as if the charging shutoff voltage adjustment (inside the charger box) is not user-accessible unless you crack open the case, so a charger which does not recharge to 4.2V or a camera that lets a battery go way too low before shutting down is grounds for asking Leica to consider replacing the charger in the first place, or the battery and/or camera in the second place, correct? scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Lad Posted April 3, 2007 Share #14 Posted April 3, 2007 jrc, For your information I have posted below a cut and paste from something I posted in another thread here. The battery that read 1.49 volts is irreversibly damaged and I would not charge or use it again. "One thing that's worth remembering when tracking down faults with Li - Ion / Li Po batts and chargers. If a Li cell is allowed to drop below a certain voltage, charged above a certain voltage or an excessive current is pulled from the cell the resultant chemical change may (normally will) cause a 'vent with flame' event (an explosion) To try to prevent this nearly all Li battery packs have built in protection circuits. Normally these are set to about: Overcharge protection at 4.35V Over-discharge protection at 2.45V Short / over-current protection at 2C If this protection has been triggered (normally the O/D protection) it is sometimes necessary to reset it by placing the battery in a charger for a minute or two before removing it and then replacing it for the full charge. I do not know if the M8 battery operates in this way but it is 99% certain that it will have a protection circuit. Please also note that under normal circumstances it is not a good idea to unnecessarily interrupt the Li charge until it is complete." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted April 3, 2007 Share #15 Posted April 3, 2007 i suggest leaning on Leica for some decent DIY test procedure and data for the charger and battery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted April 3, 2007 Share #16 Posted April 3, 2007 jrc,........................... The battery that read 1.49 volts is irreversibly damaged and I would not charge or use it again." I wonder if that really is the internal battery voltage or if the over discharge protection circuitry has been enabled and has "disconnected" the battery from the external world. If so the voltage you are measuring could be due to a sneak path and not representative of the true battery voltage. If it's working properly the protection circuit will not let you discharge the battery to such a low level. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Lad Posted April 3, 2007 Share #17 Posted April 3, 2007 Hi Bob, In all the Li-Ion cell packs I have seen, the over discharge protection triggering results in zero output voltage. Of course that doesn't mean the Leica pack works in the same way and you may well be right. Personally, having seen some Li-ion explosions, I wouldn't take the risk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Lad Posted April 3, 2007 Share #18 Posted April 3, 2007 The remains shown top right in this photo were once a single cell Li-Ion batt of less capacity than the one in our M8s. (not my photography I stress) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/20425-m8-replaced-now-what/?do=findComment&comment=219067'>More sharing options...
jrc Posted April 3, 2007 Author Share #19 Posted April 3, 2007 Thanks for all the input, though I don't understand all of it. So last night, I shot 15 frames just to make sure the camera was working properly, and it seemed to be (used a fresh Lexar 2G card formatted in the camera.) Then turned the camera switch off. This morning, measured voltages again. The two batteries that sat out overnight still measured exactly 4.15v. Then I removed the battery from the camera (before turning the camera on) and it measured 4.09 volts. I put the battery back in the camera and turned it on, and it seems to work properly (took two more shots.) So there was a sight drop in voltage in the battery in the camera. Could it be feeding or recharging the internal battery, which may not have been used for a while? In any case, I measured it several times, just to make sure that my home-made blades were not affecting the reading, but it's very consistently at 4.09. I'm going to leave it in the camera for a while, switched off, and try again mid-day. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted April 3, 2007 Share #20 Posted April 3, 2007 Yes if you haven't used the camera in some time and there was no battery in the camera the internal battery will get drained. So when you put a charged battery in the camera it will recharge the internal battery. Question: Did you have to set the date and time when you got the camera? If yes then the internal battery was empty and needed to be charged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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