M Color

[edwardkaraa]

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I have downloaded as many M dng files as I could find from the internet, and I haven't encountered not even one file that I couldn't tweak in less than a minute to something I like. If anything, I find the M files more neutral and easier to manage than the M9 files, though I think part of the charm of the M9 files is their lack of neutrality

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[erl]

I hate to tell you Jono, but that is eminently sensible talk.

You will buy me a beer next time we meet (whenever that is), won't you.

 

I take on board all the stated foibles of the M as it now stands and am firmly confident that it will improve with what it delivers, just as did the M8 and the M9.

 

Probably I am not a buyer (for the first time) of the M, but that can change. I am very happy with the M9-P I have. Maybe the limiting factor is me rather than the cameras ability anyway. Significant improvement in my photography is mostly up to me, not the gear. That said, fixing early problems with the M are important and will happen and I hope all its detractors will be up to scratch to match its performance because it is very easy to 'blame the tools' and fall short ones self. Remember it was possible to take good pics before the advent of the M, if you knew what you were doing.

[jonoslack]

Jono, what can I say? Maybe I should repeat the joke at the end of post #197.

 

You mean this one (so that people need not look back)

 

That there is a color problem with the M240 is incontestable and the head in the sand, ostrich-like denial of some people that there are serious issues remind me of a joke about about the man who comes home early and finds his wife in bed naked with another man. He says, "What..."; she says, "It's nothing, nothing, darling, it's not what you think."; he says, "But...; she says, "Honey, it's nothing. Now, what are you going to believe, what I tell you or what you see with your eyes?"

—Mitch/Paris

 

Hi Mitch

 

Do you know the one about the guy who thought his wife was having an affair?

He drove a concrete mixer lorry, and every time he went past his street he saw a Mercedes convertible outside his house. Finally he lost the plot and one sunny day, when the roof was down, he emptied a whole load of concrete into the car.

 

Then he waited - sure enough - half an hour later a guy came out of his house, got on a bicycle and cycled off down the street.

 

So - whilst I'm not suggesting that the WB presets, or the AWB of the M is perfect in the shipping firmware - otherwise, Yes I'm in Denial (that word such a cheap and easy way to make people feel insecure about their own feelings) - The M has brought me lots of fine colour images. and I've seen the same tiring arguments which all amount to "If you don't agree with me you must be blind or stupid" about the M8, the M9 and also the Monochrom in the early days.

 

All the best

[jonoslack]

I hate to tell you Jono, but that is eminently sensible talk.

You will buy me a beer next time we meet (whenever that is), won't you.

 

I take on board all the stated foibles of the M as it now stands and am firmly confident that it will improve with what it delivers, just as did the M8 and the M9.

 

Probably I am not a buyer (for the first time) of the M, but that can change. I am very happy with the M9-P I have. Maybe the limiting factor is me rather than the cameras ability anyway. Significant improvement in my photography is mostly up to me, not the gear. That said, fixing early problems with the M are important and will happen and I hope all its detractors will be up to scratch to match its performance because it is very easy to 'blame the tools' and fall short ones self. Remember it was possible to take good pics before the advent of the M, if you knew what you were doing.

 

Hi John

Of course I'm going to buy you a pint - hopefully you got my email answering your email?

 

You know that I'm not saying that everything is perfect yet - but as Edward says - you can always make it right - which I never found the to be the case with Nikon files (for instance).

 

All the best

[pieterpronk]

Maybe buyers and prospective buyers should buy the M based on what they see.

 

I mean some seem to want some firmware update to change the look of the files. Some even say colors and awb are so far "off" that they are certain a firmware update must be in the works. But with a camera that has been tested for many months by some very skilled photographers, and I wouldnt be surprised if what you see now is what you get.

This is the color of the new M. Deal with it!

(Either through PP profiles, using colors sliders in LR or by just accepting that this is not a M9 or a Canon or a Rx-1)

 

AWB is subjective.

Color is subjective.

So make up your own subjective mind. Do you like the files you see from the M? If yes, buy it. If not, dont.

It seems to me people are buying because other peopl say color is great. Now suddenly there seem to be people not buying because some people are saying the color is bad. There are plenty ot dng files online. Download them and make up your own mind. If you cant, just buy it anyway, because you probably wont notice either way.

 

(personally, I think the new M completes a shift from more subtle colors to higher contrast bolder colors. The shift has been going on in lenses, and I would say the transition from the M9 to the M is a move in the same direction. But thats my subjective evaluation which you shouldn't listen to. )

 

Just look at as many M files as you can and just decide for yourself if you want to make this step with your creativity.

[jonoslack]

 

AWB is subjective.

Color is subjective.

So make up your own subjective mind. Do you like the files you see from the M? If yes, buy it. If not, dont..

 

You put it so much more succinctly than I did!

Thank you.

[algrove]

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So, for what it is worth, I took the above .DNG file, applied 01af's settings for the M9 from http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2379888-post26.html, adjusted the Basic parameters in CS6 and got this result on a calibrated screen, WB set to 4300, -5:

 

For the moderators: If it is inappropriate to post this image please delete.

Thanks.

 

Thanks for posting this. For me could you just be specific what you did when you said you "adjusted the Basic parameters in CS6". It would be most helpful to me. Thanks.

[lct]

Identifying the so-called skin tone problem could be useful if any but where does this problem lie exactly? I've asked for DNG files of asian skin tone a couple of times above but to no avail so far.

[plasticman]

Identifying the so-called skin tone problem could be useful if any but where does this problem lie exactly?

 

The interesting thing about the human brain is how good it is at recognizing another 'real' human being. We can constantly be fooled by other simulacra - fake leather or marble - but present us with a fake human and the massive chasm of an 'uncanny valley' opens up.

Actually putting into words or identifying what's wrong is an entirely different challenge.

 

Seems to me that all digital cameras struggle more or less with the 'rubber face' look. As you'd expect from my personal preferences, I'd say Kodak Portra gives a very natural looking skin tone rendition, and under ideal conditions there are digital images I've seen that emulate that look - especially from medium format cameras.

 

There are many unknown factors in this case: whether the problem can be solved by raw profiles or whether it's an inherent characteristic of the sensor is obviously the most critical question.

[Jeff S]

Jeff, I guess I don't understand the joke - won't be the first time. The photo you posted was from the M9. It shows the M9 magenta skin tone that was characteristic of my M9. This is an example of poor M9 color - so, I don't get the reason for the post unless, you are agreeing that the M9 did not have good color.

 

No joke, and yes we agree, at least on this point...perhaps you're not open to that possibility. .

 

My point here, and throughout the thread, is that this is 'deja vu all over again.' The debate about M color is similar to debates about the M9 color...regardless of the ultimate conclusion you or others make. People forget that discussion from 3 years ago, and I'm suggesting that they'll likely forget this one as well in 3 years.

 

And my broader point is that it's not just about color; rather there is always a list of problems (real or imagined) and complaints about any new M, whether the M8, M9 or the new M, and the early adopters pay the price.

 

Meanwhile I continue to use my M8.2 until the predictable dust settles. No rush.

 

Jeff

[chris_tribble]

Like Jono - I've steered clear of this thread, but I do have to second what he says re color. Sure, the M isn't perfect (and I for one am thoroughly pissed off over the strap lug issue - it shouldn't have happened!), but the fundamentals of the camera are, IMHO, pretty damn close to everything I want - and I've not had a single image where the colour has been the reason why I've not been able to give it to a client or keep it as personal work. Sure - I've had lots of out of focus, poorly framed, incorrectly exposed images - but that's always been my fault! Where I've got things right at the user end, the camera has consistently given me results I can use. Punkt.

 

Anna Freud describes denial as "a mechanism of the immature mind, because it conflicts with the ability to learn from and cope with reality." I have the feeling that those who point the denial finger might first wish to consider their own take on reality...

[AlanJW]

So, for what it is worth, I took the above .DNG file, applied 01af's settings for the M9 from http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2379888-post26.html, adjusted the Basic parameters in CS6 and got this result on a calibrated screen, WB set to 4300, -5:

 

Thank you. This was my point about profiling and the use of 01af's M9 setting as as a starting point for the M240 until such time as a better profile can be made or is released (by either Leica or Adobe or whoever; I don't think that matters; a profile is always going to be necessary and it is purely a software issue). To my eye -- on my calibrated NEC monitor, this looks entirely acceptable and does not reveal some "flaw" in the M 240. And thank you also to 01af.

[Guest malland]

...Do you know the one about the guy who thought his wife was having an affair?

He drove a concrete mixer lorry, and every time he went past his street he saw a Mercedes convertible outside his house. Finally he lost the plot and one sunny day, when the roof was down, he emptied a whole load of concrete into the car.

 

Then he waited - sure enough - half an hour later a guy came out of his house, got on a bicycle and cycled off down the street.

 

So - whilst I'm not suggesting that the WB presets, or the AWB of the M is perfect in the shipping firmware - otherwise, Yes I'm in Denial (that word such a cheap and easy way to make people feel insecure about their own feelings) - The M has brought me lots of fine colour images. and I've seen the same tiring arguments which all amount to "If you don't agree with me you must be blind or stupid" about the M8, the M9...in the early days...

So, I guess the question is would you rather be the owner of the bike or the Benz? But seriously, you state that the situation today is similar to that of the M9 "in the early days". But isn't the point that in the early days there were problems with M9 color that were solved with firmware fixes and better profiles. In this sense, I agree that the problems with the M240 are similar — but the issue is whether these problems are fixable with firmware upgrades and better profiles.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

[Peter H]

So, I guess the question is would you rather be the owner of the bike or the Benz? .................

 

Well, the truck driver's wife preferred the cyclist to the Benz owner, so I suppose that goes some way to proving that these things are in the eye of the beholder.

[lct]

...There are many unknown factors in this case: whether the problem can be solved by raw profiles or whether it's an inherent characteristic of the sensor is obviously the most critical question.

OK Mani but what problem actually? I know that there is no problem with caucasian skin tone thanks to Jono, Chris, Dr Rohde and others who have been kind enough to publish DNG files already. Now how is it that people claiming that there is such a problem with asian skin tone don't feel the need to upload one single DNG file to support their assertion?

[mjh]

Yes, before talking about what might be causing an issue or how to resolve it, we should find out whether there actually is an issue. As far as I can see here there are people complaining about colour, but there isn’t much colour (good or bad) to be seen.

[macjonny1]

What we have here, and no one wants to admit, is a racist camera!

[plasticman]

OK Mani but what problem actually? I know that there is no problem with caucasian skin tone thanks to Jono, Chris, Dr Rohde and others who have been kind enough to publish DNG files already. Now how is it that people claiming that there is such a problem with asian skin tone don't feel the need to upload one single DNG file to support their assertion?

 

I wasn't saying there was a problem - I'm just saying it's virtually impossible to quantify objectively. By the same token I don't think it's possible to dismiss people's discomfort with what they've seen by simply saying 'it looks fine to me'.

 

My solution: carry on using Portra until the virtual dust settles.

 

PS: I do think people should just enjoy whichever camera they like without getting angry about someone else's preferences - either in favor or against.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jonoslack]

So, I guess the question is would you rather be the owner of the bike or the Benz? But seriously, you state that the situation today is similar to that of the M9 "in the early days". But isn't the point that in the early days there were problems with M9 color that were solved with firmware fixes and better profiles. In this sense, I agree that the problems with the M240 are similar — but the issue is whether these problems are fixable with firmware upgrades and better profiles.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

 

Hi Mitch

My point wasn't that there WAS a problem, but that there was PERCEIVED to be a problem by several very vocal people ( yourself included ). On that basis we don't need to discuss whether its fixable. As I say 10,000 plus images with decent colour tells me that there isn't a problem. And that doesn't mean that I don't think the WB presets couldn't be improved, or the software presets.

 

As for the M9 colour. All I want to say is that (having adjusted for slightly warm/saturated WB )I greatly prefer the colours on the M.

 

You are trying to infer an inherent fault in the colour rendering, before you can do that you need to be able to define CORRECT colour, my assertion is that in mixed lighting such correct colour is always going to be subjective, and that we all take the vast majority of our images in mixed lighting.

 

WRT profiles in software. I dislike the LR profile nearly as much as I dislike the results in C1. But that's my taste. I like the default DNG conversions in Aperture, but that's also my taste.

 

I can't tell you to like the M colour, but you can't tell me that it's wrong because you dislike it. Even more to the point you can't tell me (or anyone else) that we are in denial because you don't like it!

 

All the best

[lct]

Only problem i'm seeing is people not willing to show pics they complain about so far...