What's the verdict on the M?

[Dirk Mandeville]

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EV compensation is for pussies:p,

 

Electronic meters are for pussies! We should all just be able to look at any scene and automatically know the appropriate aperture and shutter speed without all these electronic gizmos messing up our classic camera.

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[vikasmg]

Bottom line is that it is quicker to shift a wheel with your thumb while framing the picture than it is to reach on top of the camera and change the shutter speed dial in full manual mode. With the new M, Leica has added a step -- you now have to push a button and then turn a dial. This is a needless additional hoop to jump through and hurts the ergonomics of the camera.

 

Well, my right index finger is usually at the shutter speed dial anyway so it works pretty much like a thumb wheel except that the finger operates it. Still I agree it's a needless step.

 

 

 

 

- Vikas

[Dirk Mandeville]

Well, my right index finger is usually at the shutter speed dial anyway so it works pretty much like a thumb wheel except that the finger operates it.

 

The difference really is that your way you have to set the speed with your index finger and then move your finger to the shutter button. With the exposure compensation dial, you can keep your index finger on the shutter button ready to fire the shutter at any time, while simultaneously adjusting exposure compensation with your thumb. Small differences with the same result.

 

Ultimately, whichever way you are used to will be the easiest for you. I have trained myself to use the exp. comp. button, so that is the easiest way for me to shoot. It is just natural to me. I do also find it ergonomically easier to change the thumb wheel than to use my index finger to change the shutter dial. The shutter dial is a little stiff on my M9.

 

And, as I said above, I do find it very useful that with the exp. comp. button you can change exposure in 1/3 stop increments vs. a full stop at a time with the shutter dial. There are times when this gives a more accurate exposure. But again, this is a small thing. Either way works.

 

To those who shoot fully manual who don't understand what the fuss is about, think of it this way: imagine if Leica had implemented a button that locked the shutter dial on the M, such that you first had to push a button before you could turn the shutter speed dial. Would you be happy about that? That is basically what they have done to those of us who use the exposure compensation wheel.

[rramesh]

It just made the M9 expendable.

 

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[Ecaton]

a glorified point and shoot is not a rangefinder...and should not be compared to one when talking about the camera as a whole.

 

while RX1 may seem more bang-for-buck than the Leica M, i'm sure RX100 kicks RX1 in the rear in that department also.

 

We might have a different understanding of the term "point and shoot". But the Leica Ms were always point and shoots, and probaly among the best there are. This is what made and makes them so useful for street shooting;). Simple, straight forward, not distracting from the surroundings and the action, quick and unobtrusive.

[Ecaton]

Can you focus the RX1 using a rangefinder? Can you put legacy Leica (or Zeiss) lenses on it? For that matter, can you change lenses at all? If the RX1 used interchangeable lenses, and Zeiss had a stable of superb lenses to go with it, then your comparison might make some sense. But it doesn't.

 

So, in answer to your question, yes, I think it is worth an extra $4300 to be able to use just about any Leica lens ever made (including the superb Noctilux and the new 50 APO Summicron) and focus using a classic rangefinder mechanism. Not to mention the Leica build quality. (I have owned a Sony digital camera, and I can attest that the build quality is nothing to write home about).

 

It`s not so much about M versus RX1. The latter is just an example of innovative ingeneering, of pushing the boundaries with the smallest, best in class IQ FF digital camera ever. Something Leica did with the M9. My point really is that the Leica M, X2, MM, DLux6 are technically simply not good enough for the prices Leica is asking and that money should be used more in the camera development department than for brand and product positioning efforts (which Leica does admirably well, I have to admit).

[markowich]

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It`s not so much about M versus RX1. The latter is just an example of innovative ingeneering, of pushing the boundaries with the smallest, best in class IQ FF digital camera ever. Something Leica did with the M9. My point really is that the Leica M, X2, MM, DLux6 are technically simply not good enough for the prices Leica is asking and that money should be used more in the camera development department than for brand and product positioning efforts (which Leica does admirably well, I have to admit).

 

let us not forget the S2, the biggest flop of all. measured by that standard the M240 is an engineering masterpiece.

peter

[BerndReini]

let us not forget the S2, the biggest flop of all. measured by that standard the M240 is an engineering masterpiece.

 

By whose standards? I just watched a video about a portrait photographer in Hamburg, who shot unbelievable images with the S2. Rankin just had an exhibition of fashion photographs in LA all shot with the S2. I wish I could justify buying the S2. People working with strobes, who don't need and would never shoot over ISO 400 (at the most) absolutely love the S2. You can look at comparison shots of buildings etc. with the D800 all day long, the sensor is bigger, which means portraits have a completely different drawing than with a full frame sensor, and ergonomically it beats anything that exists in the medium format world hands down. So how can you call the S2 a flop?

[dwbell]

For comparisons to have some meaning, they need to at least be of the same class. When comparing cars, trying to compare a luxury car to a sports car is pointless. They are different tools and one doesn't compare to the other for the uses they will be put to.

 

My point was simply that it makes no sense to try to compare a Leica rangefinder camera, which is truly in a class by itself, as there are no other compact digital rangefinder cameras, to a glorified point-and-shoot with a fixed lens. There really is no comparing the two. They have different functionality and will appeal to different market needs.

 

In your opinion. Which is exactly my point.

 

Some are comparing "cameras", me included. You again apply a specific restriction to narrow your personal result. "Compact Digital Rangefinder". I don't. I compare "smaller cameras than DSLR'swith good IQ".

 

Your car analogy is also specific and restricted. Some may compare "mode of transport" from A to B, evaluating the comfort, cost, enjoyment of not only sports car and luxury car but also taxi, bus, bicycle etc.

 

I'm not saying your parameters are wrong, no one is wrong. I'm saying they're unique and very individual, as they are entitled to be. But so are mine, and in mine I can and do compare M240 with RX1 and X100s. To claim other people's comparisons "have no meaning" is pure folly.

[dwbell]

To the AE topic.

 

What is the difference between letting the camera tell you which way to turn the dial with arrows in the viewfinder until it says "stop, that's perfect" (dot in middle) - and - just letting the camera set that speed on it's own in Av?

 

One is "pure" and "manual", the other is not? Pah, both are the same automation with different user interaction and required input.

 

Then there's "manual" shooters (like myself) who meter using an auxiliary hand held meter. We are the purest. Oh, no, wait. I'm just doing exactly the same as 'Av man' but using an unattached meter, then putting that value into the camera.

 

Ok, real manual is only those who have disabled the in camera meter, judge the exposure from experience or derived from sunny 16 and take only one shot, with no chimping and no bracketing. Everyone else is a pussy.

 

I'd rather do everything I can to get the shot, quite frankly. I don't care how more or less manual anyone thinks that is as long as I can get the print on the wall.

[jaapv]

It has nothing to do with pure, it has to do with personal preference.

 

To me there are two reasons to prefer manual in most cases:

1.The layout of the camera makes it the most convenient way.

2. The settings will not shift when one moves the camera.

 

And when it is more practical to use AE I will do so without feeling impure.

For instance when operating the camera with gloves on.

[dwbell]

It has nothing to do with pure, it has to do with personal preference.

 

To me there are two reasons to prefer manual in most cases:

1.The layout of the camera makes it the most convenient way.

2. The settings will not shift when one moves the camera.

 

And when it is more practical to use AE I will do so without feeling impure.

For instance when operating the camera with gloves on.

 

Your 'manual' is the Karaoke method though correct? Follow the bouncing ball?

[jaapv]

 

It is just the method I prefer, as others prefer other methods.

Another question: The M9 allows to change the way EVcompensation is set in the menu. Does the M not have this option?

[dwbell]

 

It is just the method I prefer, as others prefer other methods.

Another question: The M9 allows to change the way EVcompensation is set in the menu. Does the M not have this option?

 

Yes, sorry, no intent to that post. Just clarification. As your 'manual' method could also be more accurately termed "auto exposure determination, manual parameter input", or "half manual".

 

I'm labouring a point, clearly. And we both agree in the end. There's no right, wrong, correct, pro or amateur method. There's just what suits the individual.

[Rick]

Ok, real manual is only those who have disabled the in camera meter, judge the exposure from experience or derived from sunny 16 and take only one shot, with no chimping and no bracketing. Everyone else is a pussy.

 

Finally, you get me. To understand the intensity of light in any given situation and then set the camera to capture the mood of the moment, whether it be high noon (that is a mood) or the rich light and color of early evening, is done by knowing what part of the scene you want to base the exposure on - that is manual.

 

It might be loosely based on a hand held meter or an in-camera meter used in auto or manual exposer mode. But, it is ultimately based on what you want the image to feel like - that is manual.

[dwbell]

Finally, you get me. To understand the intensity of light in any given situation and then set the camera to capture the mood of the moment, whether it be high noon (that is a mood) or the rich light and color of early evening, is done by knowing what part of the scene you want to base the exposure on - that is manual.

 

It might be loosely based on a hand held meter or an in-camera meter used in auto or manual exposer mode. But, it is ultimately based on what you want the image to feel like - that is manual.

 

Ah ha! So "manual" can be any level of automation (or not) so long as you, the photographer, are controlling, or understanding the camera's suggestion enough to create the image you pre-visualised in terms of mood, expression, visual intent etc?

 

If that's what you're inferring, then I love it. Feck all to do with how, a boat load to do with why. That, to me, matters.

[Rick]

Ah ha! So "manual" can be any level of automation (or not) so long as you, the photographer, are controlling, or understanding the camera's suggestion enough to create the image you pre-visualised in terms of mood, expression, visual intent etc?

 

If that's what you're inferring, then I love it. Feck all to do with how, a boat load to do with why. That, to me, matters.

 

Yes and yes and yes. Once you understand why, you can create anything you want.

[dwbell]

Yes and yes and yes. Once you understand why, you can create anything you want.

 

Until sensor development, in-camera processing and trickery allows such great DR that we just compose and select DoF or shutter speed for creative effect and "ISO" becomes an out dated concept, largely irrelevant. Upon which we choose our mood in post as all levels of luminance are represented in sufficient detail.

 

Or am I getting ahead of myself?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[colonel]

You might find this review I just published (click here) useful... but it may be a lot more information than you're looking for...

 

;-)

 

Firstly, brilliant review, thanks

 

Secondly I have used the D800E extensively and RX1 but not the M240. I agree with your conclusions 90%. I avoided the lens issue somewhat on the D800E by only using the 35mm f1.4G and 85mm f1.4G but they both lag Leica sgnificantly wide open and at f2.

At f2.8 the 35mmG is a cracker with bags of character as well.

 

The RX1 I find has extremely neutral colours and it took me time to find my Lightroom balance. Nikon DSLRs tend to be over saturated which looks good sometimes but not others. Canon is a bit over warm and "reddy". It grieves me that Canon sensors have not caught up with the competition, especially on DR. I would love to return to such characters as the 50mm f1.2 and 85mm f1.2 at some point in the future.

 

I liked the M9 colours, although a bit weird. They were quite easy to deal with in Lightroom to get a pleasant result.

 

I am not convinced about the M240 yet, so I have decamped from Leica M digital and am using a M6TTL and having great fun BTW. I wish the digital Leicas had the same form factor.

 

Perhaps when ex-demo or second hand Ms start to show up I will take the plunge.

 

The best Leica digital I have ever used is the Monochrom. It's pictures brought a smile to my face at every ISO. However I am nervous going with CCD again, which had also put me off the S2, although the second hand prices are getting better and the though of using those flawless lenses does excite.

 

Thanks again for the review and keep us posted.

BTW I presume your are also tashley on dpreview ?

[Rick]

Yes, a lot of it can be done in post. Just like WB is very arbitrary for me as well, in post. But, even with all of the DR we have now, you still need to at least expose to where you want to start, in post. That gives the richest image. I've got to go to bed. Zzzzzzzz.........