albertknappmd Posted March 30, 2007 Share #21 Â Posted March 30, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) John- The Kodak reference is dated 2001, way before Tin oxide coatings were developed and therefore, this reference is not valid anymore. Kodak should update its recommendations. :( Photographic solutions is quite clear that Eclipse E2 should be used for the M8 and Eclipse for the DMR. Furthermore, you need photswabs #1 for the M8 and #3 for the DMR. What a pain..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 30, 2007 Posted March 30, 2007 Hi albertknappmd, Take a look here More on Sensor Cleaning. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
RSL Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share #22 Â Posted March 30, 2007 I don't feel Leica's attitude is THAT defensive. Â Jaap, Of course you're right. Leica isn't that defensive. Here's what Cleaning Digital Cameras, a guy who's evidently done a bunch of research has to say about what the camera manufacturers do. Â -------------------------------------------- Â Only Kodak, Leica and Fuji support the consumer in using the same method that they themselves use for cleaning the low pass filter. All the others manufacturers only support the non-physical contact use of a hand blower. If Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax or Sigma, can tell that you have touched the low pass filter, your warranty is void. On the other hand, Photographic Solutions Inc., guarantees that you won't damage your camera, if you use their Sensor Swabsâ„¢ and Eclipseâ„¢. Â Canon - Blower and a Kimwipe, held by tweezers. They do not like to use fluid but when necessary they use either 90% isopropyl alcohol or a 50/50 mixture of isopropyl alcohol and Windex. Fuji - Photographic Solutions Sensor Swabsâ„¢ and Eclipseâ„¢ Kodak - Photographic Solutions Sensor Swabsâ„¢ and Eclipseâ„¢ Leica - Photographic Solutions Sensor Swabsâ„¢ and Eclipseâ„¢ Nikon - A commercial grade lens tissue wrapped around a chopstick style piece of wood with medical grade methanol. Several forums have posts where readers have been to Nikon Service outside the USA and reported seeing the technicians using Sensors Swabs and Eclipse. Olympus - A Kimwipe held by tweezers and Olympus Proprietary Solution (dries quickly without streaks and is bio-degradable). Pentax - A special lint free cloth (provided from Japan) folded into a small square and held with a pair of tweezers as a swab moistened with a freon derivative. Sigma - Uses a special vacuum cleaner that was provided by Japan. Sony - Uses Sensor Swabsâ„¢ and Eclipseâ„¢ by Photographic Solutions. Â ----------------------------------------------------------------- Â The only problem with this is that it increases the confusion BarJohn mentioned. It would be nice if Leica would tell everyone what they do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share #23 Â Posted March 30, 2007 John-The Kodak reference is dated 2001, way before Tin oxide coatings were developed and therefore, this reference is not valid anymore. Kodak should update its recommendations. :( Photographic solutions is quite clear that Eclipse E2 should be used for the M8 and Eclipse for the DMR. Furthermore, you need photswabs #1 for the M8 and #3 for the DMR. What a pain..... Â Unfortunately that doesn't answer the question of whether or not Leica actually uses tin oxide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted March 30, 2007 Share #24  Posted March 30, 2007 Can you point me to this thread? I've tried searching through the Discussin fora over there and haven't found anything on this. Thanks! Bruce  Bruce and all.  Sorry I mislead you. The link was at Outback Photo not Luminous Landscape. Here is the link. Dust Aid @Digital Outback Photo  Cheers  Woody Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted March 30, 2007 Share #25 Â Posted March 30, 2007 Well, I've just asked Leica UK service dept ..... They cannot comment on Eclipse and E2. All they say is unless those products are officially endorsed by Leica - no comment. Â Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share #26  Posted March 30, 2007 Well, I've just asked Leica UK service dept ..... They cannot comment on Eclipse and E2. All they say is unless those products are officially endorsed by Leica - no comment. Bob.  What a surprise! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 30, 2007 Share #27 Â Posted March 30, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Kodak reference is dated 2001, way before Tin oxide coatings were developed and therefore, this reference is not valid anymore. Kodak should update its recommendations. Doesn't make sense to say a given reference is invalid just because a new option has arisen. Kodak's specs on the M8 sensor point out that it doesn't use indium tin oxide coatings, and direct to the sensor cleaning file listed. (Analogy: If I have a carbureted car, I still follow instructions for setting points, even if you've got electronic emission.) Â Photographic solutions is quite clear that Eclipse E2 should be used for the M8 and Eclipse for the DMR. Photographic Solutions "is quite clear" that E2 has not been endorsed by Leica for the M8 and also says that E2 may be used with indium tin oxide as well as earlier coatings. So I think we could use the original solution or E2 with the M8. Seems to me clear that Eclipse will do just fine (per the sensor mfr) and Eclipse E2 will also do just fine (per Photographic Solutions). Â That's just my reading. Nothing to get upset about, but there is indeed plenty of contradictory information to keep us busy. Â --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted March 30, 2007 Share #28 Â Posted March 30, 2007 needless to say, but I have already put in two calls to Dave Ewell, the Leica tech specialist in NJ... no answer as of yet but he did state that several people have also called about Eclipse and eclipse E2... So far, it seems that Eclipse and Sensor Swabs #3 are for the DMR whereas Eclipse E2 and Sensor Swabs #1 are for the M8..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted March 30, 2007 Share #29 Â Posted March 30, 2007 John-The Kodak reference is dated 2001, way before Tin oxide coatings were developed and therefore, this reference is not valid anymore. Kodak should update its recommendations. :( Photographic solutions is quite clear that Eclipse E2 should be used for the M8 and Eclipse for the DMR. Furthermore, you need photswabs #1 for the M8 and #3 for the DMR. What a pain..... Â Yes, but it is referenced in the sensor doumentaion (too large a pdf for me to upload here). Hence, they still consider it the proper method/solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted March 31, 2007 Author Share #30  Posted March 31, 2007 Well, I've just asked Leica UK service dept ..... They cannot comment on Eclipse and E2. All they say is unless those products are officially endorsed by Leica - no comment. Bob.  Robert, Unfortunately that's the wrong question. Of course they won't comment on Eclipse because they don't want you touching the sensor. The question is: Does this sensor use indium tin oxide? I'll bet the service department doesn't know the answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted March 31, 2007 Share #31 Â Posted March 31, 2007 RSL, It isn't the sensor that uses the iridium tin oxide but the glass IR filter coating that you are cleaning. You need to search on the B7 glass and see if it identifies the AR coating used. Maybe Photographic solutions knows the answer and an email to them would clarify this issue. Certainly Kodak knows so an email to them should reveal the answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted March 31, 2007 Author Share #32 Â Posted March 31, 2007 John, Of course, you're right. I tend to treat the sensor and filter as a unit since that's the way the thing comes, but it pays to remember that we're talking about a glass cover over the filter. Seems to me Leica, itself, ought to have the answer and be willing to tell us the answer. It's stuff like this that makes me hold off on the M8. Once we get some real fixes and some straight answers from Leica I'll be right there on the bandwagon with you and Sailor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W Posted March 31, 2007 Share #33 Â Posted March 31, 2007 My M8 arrived new with a dirty sensor based on evaluating photos taken. It was not just dust but grime or oil. I used Eclipse and Pecpads. It did the job. I have used this method in the past with my Nikons so it was not new to me. It does take a little nerve to stick stuff into your open shutter right on the sensor the first time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Jones Posted April 3, 2007 Share #34 Â Posted April 3, 2007 There is a Kodak document that describes the recommended way to clean their sensor cover glass. It is fairly old but at least one Kodak sensor document printed years after the cleaning document was originally released references it. I suppose Kodak feels the cleaning procedure and chemicals originally published are still valid and perhaps still used in the Kodak factory! Â It is interesting that this document advise against the use of Methanol because, Kodak claims, its cleaning properties are not as good as a good grade of iso propanol or pure ETHANOL (ethyl, not methyl) alcohol. Â I think the makers of the Eclipse brand of cleaning solution (aparently well filtered Methanol?) are doing a fine job of marketing. They have a product that works well and has industry endorsement. However, as more is known about the nature of the cover glass and its coating and as more people begin to tackle the job of cleaning, other fluids, such as those originally recommended by Kodak, will be found to cause no damage and with great success in dissolving and removing unwanted particles. I could be wrong but I think it unlikely that Eclipse brand fluid would be specified as the cleaning agent of choice for the M8 sensor manufacturing process at the Kodak factory. Â It would be interesting if Kodak would explain how the sensor used in the M8 is cleaned during the manufacturing process. Anyone with Kodak connections?? Â Regards, Â Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted April 3, 2007 Share #35 Â Posted April 3, 2007 (Sadly I have no idea if this is a problem with the ITO coatings on the M8) But now we know--as indicated in other posts here, and as indicated in Kodak's still-recommended cleaning instructions from 2001, and as specified at http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/20667-eclipse-e2-m8-dmr-answer-photosol-2.html#post219079 by Leica USA to A B Knapp: The M8 doesn't use indium tin oxide coatings. Â That thread also quotes Leica saying the DMR should be cleaned with Eclipse fluid, but of course the DMR has a different sensor from the M8, so inferences should not be drawn. Â @RSL--Thanks for the link http://www.cleaningdigitalcameras.com/. But unfortunately, with the 1DSMkIII, Canon seems to have changed the rules again by introducing the ITO-coated sensor glass. Â What fun this is become! Â You're right, Woody, it's important and it won't go away. Â --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted April 3, 2007 Share #36 Â Posted April 3, 2007 Â @Michael--I'm curious where you got the idea that Eclipse is methanol. Â --HC Â Ah From the back of the Eclipse bottle. Caution: Contains Methanol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted April 3, 2007 Share #37 Â Posted April 3, 2007 Wow! "Contains Methanol," eh? Â Fairly direct statement, that one! Â Thanks for the information. I'll go hide under a rock again! Â And Photosol also says that Eclipse is the "highest purity lens cleaner available," whatever they think that is supposed to mean. Â Does that mean that there are other, higher purity lens cleaners, but they are proprietary and not generally available? What about distilled water? But anyway, we were talking sensor cleaners, not lens cleaners. Maybe what they mean is that Eclipse is the only sensor cleaner recommended for cleaning both lenses and sensors, depending on the applicator? Indeed, the DMR recommendations specifically say to avoid cleaning the sensor with PEC*PADS, though Sensor Swabs are fine. Â Funner and funner this becomes! Â --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted April 3, 2007 Share #38 Â Posted April 3, 2007 FWIW I've just received a bottle of E2 and it says on the bottle: Â Caution contains Ethanol. Â E2 is not recommended for lenses or filters - use our ECLIPSE Optic Cleaner. Â The only directions printed on the side of the bottle are for cleaning Tin Oxide sensors. Â The comment about not using it for lenses or filters would make me infer it's not suitable for the M8 which according to Leica doesn't use Tin Oxide. Maybe "suitable" isn't the best choice of words, perhaps it should be Photographic Solutions "preferred choice". Â Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted April 3, 2007 Share #39 Â Posted April 3, 2007 I haven't wet cleaned my sensor since receiving the camera at the end of last year. However I've noticed momentary condensation from breathing near the sensor shows very broad diagonal smears on it's surface. So at some time it's been wiped clean with a liquid which has left a residue. Â Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMB Posted April 3, 2007 Share #40 Â Posted April 3, 2007 I insist on what I have said in the other thread. Â Leica Solms, their Support Service, must give us, as has done with the SD Cards, a list of especific products to clean ours sensors taking the resposability that nobody of us could take for not to have the whole information. Â Many times I ask myself, in spite of I know that in this Forum there are thecnical people, how many of us experiment with so delicate instrument like M8? (So delicate and so expensive). Â I publicly recognize I can't buy one M8 even every three years and my respect for thecnical people of Leica not to say (as I do now) them what must do so frecuenly, as many o us have done. Â I beg you pardon for my words. Â Francisco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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