Guest roey Posted March 28, 2013 Share #21 Posted March 28, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Why? Would that behavior get into your way? In case you misunderstood what I am asking for: the goal is to *not* underexpose in situations where one requires a certain minimum shutter speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 Hi Guest roey, Take a look here M Firmware/Hardware Improvements Thread. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
algrove Posted March 28, 2013 Share #22 Posted March 28, 2013 I would like to see the Horizon setting stay on, on the LCD until turned off by operator rather than going off whenever another button or function is demanded after turning Horizon on. This comment mostly applies to tripod/landscape photography. Example, because you must move the camera to see which area of the frame is in focus with Magnification (instead of having Magnification move within the frame) you can then go to Horizon and that flow works. But, as soon as you go back to Magnification again (which automatically means you must move the camera and therefore loose your Horizon accuracy setting) you loose the Horizon setting on the LCD. Why cannot two functions be visible on the LCD simultaneously? That would solve many issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted March 29, 2013 Share #23 Posted March 29, 2013 Why? Would that behavior get into your way? In case you misunderstood what I am asking for: the goal is to *not* underexpose in situations where one requires a certain minimum shutter speed. I try to explain in bad English: I have a M9, where the automatic exposure often is not accurate. So I turn quickly to manual exposure and choose the correct time. But in Auto Iso the camera perhaps overrides my choice and does the false exposure. I do not want that. As a consequence I never use Auto Iso, though I would like to. I wrote this very early to Leica and it seemes, they heard to me. Elmar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roey Posted March 29, 2013 Share #24 Posted March 29, 2013 I see. Well, it looks like what works well for you breaks other users' established workflows. I see where you are coming from, but I don't think the current behavior is a real solution, since you will still be at the mercy of the camera picking an ISO in this situation, since you haven't set one . As far as I understand it it will be the one of the last picture, which might not be what you'd expect. But let's move further discussions of this topic to the thread dedicated to this issue: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/277922-leica-m240-auto-iso.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted March 29, 2013 Share #25 Posted March 29, 2013 ... since you will still be at the mercy of the camera picking an ISO in this situation, since you haven't set one . As far as I understand it it will be the one of the last picture, which might not be what you'd expect.l[/url] This is a point. I would like best, that the camera would go to base Iso. Elmar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_S Posted March 29, 2013 Share #26 Posted March 29, 2013 ...I see where you are coming from, but I don't think the current behavior is a real solution, since you will still be at the mercy of the camera picking an ISO in this situation, since you haven't set one . As far as I understand it it will be the one of the last picture, which might not be what you'd expect. It is certainly not what I would expect on Auto ISO with manual settings. Why could it not set the ISO to match a correct exposure within the limits of the current settings, e.g., manually select 1/500 at f11 and it adjusts to ISO 400 under `Bright or hazy sun (with distinct shadows)', and ISO 800 in `cloudy bright (no shadows)'. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_S Posted March 29, 2013 Share #27 Posted March 29, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...I see where you are coming from, but I don't think the current behavior is a real solution, since you will still be at the mercy of the camera picking an ISO in this situation, since you haven't set one . As far as I understand it it will be the one of the last picture, which might not be what you'd expect. It is certainly not what I would expect on Auto ISO with manual settings. Why could it not set the ISO to match a correct exposure within the limits of the current settings, e.g., manually select 1/1000 at f8 and it adjusts to ISO 400 under `Bright or hazy sun (with distinct shadows)', and ISO 800 in `cloudy bright (no shadows)'. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 29, 2013 Share #28 Posted March 29, 2013 I have read (and participated in) many discussions like this, in several vendor’s forums. Apparently some photographers’ mental model of exposure is such that combining manual exposure and auto ISO makes sense, whereas that of other photographers is such that it does not. It is unlikely that we will ever see agreement between those two groups. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted March 29, 2013 Share #29 Posted March 29, 2013 What is the reasoning behind Leica changing from one group to another? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roey Posted March 29, 2013 Share #30 Posted March 29, 2013 I have read (and participated in) many discussions like this, in several vendor’s forums. Apparently some photographers’ mental model of exposure is such that combining manual exposure and auto ISO makes sense, whereas that of other photographers is such that it does not. It is unlikely that we will ever see agreement between those two groups. Well, the way it is currently implemented none of those groups will be happy (because you will get random ISO). The ideal solution would be to add another setting to auto ISO that determines the behavior when a manual shutter speed is set in combination with auto ISO. I would choose the auto setting whereas Elmar would pick 200. If that is not possible and the current (somewhat broken) model is what we will have to live with I would like to see Leica remove the arbitrary restrictions for the auto ISO minimum shutter speed setting. I think it is 1/500th now with the M. Let me set it to any shutter speed I want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
insomnia Posted March 29, 2013 Share #31 Posted March 29, 2013 What is the reasoning behind Leica changing from one group to another? They did not change, they abandoned one (maybe both?). Both methods were achievable with the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted March 29, 2013 Share #32 Posted March 29, 2013 ... I have a M9, where the automatic exposure often is not accurate. So I turn quickly to manual exposure and choose the correct time. But in Auto Iso the camera perhaps overrides my choice and does the false exposure. I do not want that. As a consequence I never use Auto Iso, though I would like to. ... The automatic exposure of any camera measures the light (in a way which may be idiosyncratic for the camera) and then calculates a combination of aperture and exposure time from the measured value and the given sensitivity of the film or sensor. On auto-ISO with both aperture and time fixed, the camera would vary the ISO speed of the sensor and thus (ideally) arrive at the same exposure. But: if the exposure set with a fixed ISO value is not accurate, neither will the exposure with the variable ISO. What did I not understand? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 29, 2013 Share #33 Posted March 29, 2013 On auto-ISO with both aperture and time fixed, the camera would vary the ISO speed of the sensor and thus (ideally) arrive at the same exposure. But: if the exposure set with a fixed ISO value is not accurate, neither will the exposure with the variable ISO. What did I not understand? That’s what he said, isn’t it? He wants ISO to be fixed so Auto ISO cannot mess things up when he sets the shutter speed manually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted March 29, 2013 Share #34 Posted March 29, 2013 That’s what he said, isn’t it? He wants ISO to be fixed so Auto ISO cannot mess things up when he sets the shutter speed manually. AutoISO should always be AutoISO...not most of the time unless you move the shutter dial then it will be whatever was your last manual ISO used, regardless of how long and how many power cycles. Oh, and the ISO menu will still say "AutoISO", even though it isn't. This is nuts (as we Americans say)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
insomnia Posted March 29, 2013 Share #35 Posted March 29, 2013 That’s what he said, isn’t it? He wants ISO to be fixed so Auto ISO cannot mess things up when he sets the shutter speed manually. Then he may not choose Auto ISO. What do I not understand? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted March 29, 2013 Share #36 Posted March 29, 2013 Call me old fashioned but I believe (unlike Leica apparently) that shooting in Manual requires the setting of Aperture, Shutter Speed, and ISO. AutoISO, hence the term AUTO, is not part of the deal. Anyone wanting to shoot their M240 in Manual should be smart enough to set these three parameters. Anyone setting Aperture, Shutter Speed and AutoISO should expect the camera to select an ISO speed that will render an acceptable exposure (or come as close as possible trying). Too bad this isn't the way it works now. When I discovered this on my M240 I actually went to the Owner's Manual. What a waste of time that was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 29, 2013 Share #37 Posted March 29, 2013 AutoISO should always be AutoISO...not most of the time unless you move the shutter dial then it will be whatever was your last manual ISO used, regardless of how long and how many power cycles. Oh, and the ISO menu will still say "AutoISO", even though it isn't. Yep, the way it is implemented now doesn’t appear to be thoroughly thought out – like Leica just said “Let’s disable Auto ISO when the shutter speed is selected manually”, without thinking about which ISO setting would be used then. This wouldn’t be an issue when there was always an active manual ISO setting and a way to select ‘Auto’ to override that manual setting, but with ‘Auto’ being a setting on equal footing with the fixed ISO values it isn’t that simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 29, 2013 Share #38 Posted March 29, 2013 What is the reasoning behind Leica changing from one group to another? They listened to many user's criticicism of their manuals. The M9-manual says, that you can't use Auto-Iso with manual exposure - which was wrong. Now the manual of the new M says the same - which is right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted March 29, 2013 Share #39 Posted March 29, 2013 They listened to many user's criticicism of their manuals. The M9-manual says, that you can't use Auto-Iso with manual exposure - which was wrong. Now the manual of the new M says the same - which is right. Well they certainly buried that in the fine print. I had to read it again before I found the subscript at the bottom of the page. Absolutely stupid the way this is programmed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted March 29, 2013 Share #40 Posted March 29, 2013 It is a matter of taste and effectivity. When I turn to manual shutter speed I expect a full manual camera, whereover I have the full contro, especially full control over the (under- and over-) exposure. I do not want to make a further step and turn of Auto Iso. It is similar to exposure correction(+/-). It should automaticly turn of, when going to manual speed, though it does not at the M9. Elmar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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