Ecar Posted March 12, 2013 Share #81 Posted March 12, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) No need - such a camera would be timeless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 12, 2013 Posted March 12, 2013 Hi Ecar, Take a look here A little disappointed. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
douglasf13 Posted March 12, 2013 Share #82 Posted March 12, 2013 And huw would you set the date and time, USB attached cuckoo-clock? That's a good idea. You could attach the camera to a computer via USB to make any necessary changes, although I really wouldn't even care if you could set the date and time, to be honest. This could be the true digital MP. No LCD screen, slightly thinner body, an ISO dial like the film cameras, a format button under the base plate, and a film advance lever for providing a thumb grip. Just raw shooting, so no need to worry about jpeg settings, etc. I'd buy one, if it was less expensive than the M 240. It sounds fun. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 12, 2013 Share #83 Posted March 12, 2013 Well, I'm sure it would be a nice camera, but I estimate the market will not exceed 100 pieces. Leica can sell a 1000 of any kind of 'edition' – especially if it is priced high enough – do you seriously think they could only sell 100 units of a 'purist' MP digital M? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 12, 2013 Share #84 Posted March 12, 2013 I'd buy one, if it was less expensive than the M 240. It sounds fun. I'd buy one if it was more expensive than the latest M. Especially if it comes with attachable USB cuckoo clock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglasf13 Posted March 12, 2013 Share #85 Posted March 12, 2013 I'd buy one if it was more expensive than the latest M. Especially if it comes with attachable USB cuckoo clock. I would WANT to buy one, even if it was more expensive than the M 240, but I'm not sure I'd actually be compelled to upgrade my M9 for it. Tough call. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_S Posted March 12, 2013 Share #86 Posted March 12, 2013 And huw would you set the date and time, USB attached cuckoo-clock? Sarcasm aside, how do you set time on a digital clock, it's not that difficult really. Douglas, I like the idea of an analogue ISO dial. It could have an A setting for auto ISO. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete hogan Posted March 12, 2013 Share #87 Posted March 12, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'd buy one if it was more expensive than the latest M. Especially if it comes with attachable USB cuckoo clock. Would it then be the Uhr-Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted March 13, 2013 Share #88 Posted March 13, 2013 The M is certainly a step forward in the right direction for Leica. However I wonder if Leica can keep abreast of technology innovation which would be a must in the CMOS mainstream technology world. The sensor while proven to be as good as the Leica CCD in recent photos has still some catching up compared to the Canons and Nikons. The Maestro processor is old and in serious need for enhancements. The electronics behind the EVF are also probably old and may not be easily upgraded to the new display announced by Epson at Phototokina which I am sure will be th basis for the Olympus VF-5. The rangefinder on the other hand is superlative and must be retained by Leica moving forward. I think we are in for an exciting phase in Leica's roadmap if they can stay abreast and the future may be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
intermediatic Posted March 13, 2013 Share #89 Posted March 13, 2013 I've put down my deposit. It's true, it's not a huge jump. The huge jumps have already been taken. This means that technology is now becoming less important. Once we have video on board and the camera has a decent frame rate, there isn't much else that is necessary. I predict that you'll be able to get a much better price for this camera in 10 years than for an M8 this year. Meanwhile Leica will gain ground while the big boys in the DSLR world flag. People will concentrate on photography instead. If you need to shoot your photos under a blanket in a dark room, then this camera won't do it for you. There were some dodgy photos on dpreview at the start, sure, but they were probably taken with an iPhone 3g and labelled Leica M 240 by a prankster. Anyway, take a look at the performance proofs. They're great. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macjonny1 Posted March 13, 2013 Share #90 Posted March 13, 2013 . I predict that you'll be able to get a much better price for this camera in 10 years than for an M8 this year. . There is no way anyone will pay even $1000 in 10 years for your new M. I guarantee it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted March 13, 2013 Share #91 Posted March 13, 2013 I'd buy one if it was more expensive than the latest M. Especially if it comes with attachable USB cuckoo clock. So long as it does not poke out your rangefinder eye. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
intermediatic Posted March 13, 2013 Share #92 Posted March 13, 2013 There is no way anyone will pay even $1000 in 10 years for your new M. I guarantee it! By what logic do you say this? A Leica M8 sells for around $1500 on eBay. It is a camera released in 2006. The leap from non-full frame to full frame is huge and is much bigger than the leap to film. Once you go over 20MP, you run up against the usable limit for pixels and the limits that lenses can bear. I already don't use my Canon 5D MK II because it outresolves the limits of L glass. Technology is no longer improving by leaps and bounds. Remember scanners? When is the last time that you heard of new technology in being deployed in scanners? Or laser printers? A $500 scanner from 2007 and a $500 laser printer from 2013 are essentially identical. Now scanners and laser printers aren't durable items, they are cheaply made junk that will fall apart swiftly, generally due to little plastic gears wearing themselves out. I just bought a twenty year old amplifier, a Music Reference RM-9 for $1800. It originally sold for $2450. A comparable new amp would have cost me $4000. Did I get a good value going used? Yes. Did the amp hold its value? Yes. Leica has proven enormously popular since the development of the M8. Look at the cost of older Leica lenses. Going down like a rock, right? You betcha. I have co-workers who would love to have M cameras but still can't afford them and don't want a used M8 because it is not full frame. I've used the 4/3 series, DSLRs, and compact cameras. There isn't any competition from these. There'll be some more giant killer compacts and my Sony RX-100 is the most used camera I have since it is always with me, but I highly doubt they will outperform the M series.For one, the rangefinder experience has not yet been duplicated with any of these cameras. If you can shoot video with it, it has a reasonable buffer and frame rate, decent high ISO performance, MP over 20, and you keep it in good shape, it's going to be sellable for many years. Anyone who wants to wait around for the "true" successor to the M9 is going to be waiting a long long time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted March 13, 2013 Share #93 Posted March 13, 2013 That's a sweeping statement - forgetting the personal - I'm amazed that you found Ming Thein's images to be unimpressive to downright ghastly. absolutely I think the damp squib is the difference between CCD and CMOS Leica have tuned the WB to be more Canonish (oh boy, I said it now!) - no bad thing IMHO but otherwise your Summiluxes and Noctiluxes are still high and dry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macjonny1 Posted March 13, 2013 Share #94 Posted March 13, 2013 By what logic do you say this? A Leica M8 sells for around $1500 on eBay. It is a camera released in 2006. The leap from non-full frame to full frame is huge and is much bigger than the leap to film. Technology is no longer improving by leaps and bounds. Remember scanners? When is the last time that you heard of new technology in being deployed in scanners? Or laser printers? A $500 scanner from 2007 and a $500 laser printer from 2013 are essentially identical. Now scanners and laser printers aren't durable items, they are cheaply made junk that will fall apart swiftly, generally due to little plastic gears wearing themselves out. I just bought a twenty year old amplifier, a Music Reference RM-9 for $1800. It originally sold for $2450. A comparable new amp would have cost me $4000. Did I get a good value going used? Yes. Did the amp hold its value? Yes. If you can shoot video with it, it has a reasonable buffer and frame rate, decent high ISO performance, MP over 20, and you keep it in good shape, it's going to be sellable for many years. Anyone who wants to wait around for the "true" successor to the M9 is going to be waiting a long long time. I snipped a few parts out but you have some points but are mixing up economies. Although we may think there are diminishing returns here and I agree, there will be small incremental improvements for sure. You can't compare vintage amps as that is a whole different economy. I have a fully restored 1960s B&O system that cost thousands now. It made money! (not including inflation of course). I have other 1990s B&O gear that has held its value too such as speakers, a 1960s turntable that cost a lot of $$$. That means nothing though as we are talking cameras. Hopefully at a minimum Leica will release a new camera in 2016, 2019, and 2022. In 10 years your new M will be 3 generations old! We are talking about an economy here where Leica fans will pay $2000 just to get an upgraded piece of glass and a dot removed! If we don't assume any inflation and the new 2022 version in today's dollars cost $7000 what do you think the 2019, 2016 will sell for? Your M will be right around a grand if you're lucky! Plus, it will be 10 years old! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnakChan Posted March 20, 2013 Share #95 Posted March 20, 2013 I would WANT to buy one, even if it was more expensive than the M 240, but I'm not sure I'd actually be compelled to upgrade my M9 for it. Tough call. I'm actually at this dilemma myself as I type this. My M9 and it's box is ready outside to be brought to the shop to be traded in but looking at the M9 vs M 240 pix, I'm inclined to actually stay with the M9 as every comparison, I've selected the M9. The attraction of the 240 though is big LCD display at the back and the usability at high ISO. In other words, is it worthwhile to spend a few thousands of dollars as a catalyst to encourage me to pick up my Leica more to take pictures that are of similar result - or is it better to save the $$ and instill more self-discipline and just stick to the M9. Surprisingly, something like the M7 is easier to force discipline as there is no screen at all. As wise Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted March 20, 2013 Share #96 Posted March 20, 2013 It is hard to see how a digital camera can do away with an LCD screen. Even the R8 sported one, albeit quite rudimentary. Bluetooth and the App. You could move those functions to your cell phone or tablet computer. When it's possible to control a miniature helicopter with a phone over bluetooth, it should not pose any fundamental difficulties to do a few settings on a still camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglasf13 Posted March 20, 2013 Share #97 Posted March 20, 2013 ...The attraction of the 240 though is big LCD display at the back and the usability at high ISO. I've found that, if I don't shoot the M9 over ISO 640, I can easily push the raws in LR4 to at least an ISO 5000 equivalent. Sure, they'll be noisier than the M 240, but nothing looks particularly great at those ISOs, anyways, and I don't mind the noise most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted March 20, 2013 Share #98 Posted March 20, 2013 I'm actually at this dilemma myself as I type this. My M9 and it's box is ready outside to be brought to the shop to be traded in but looking at the M9 vs M 240 pix, I'm inclined to actually stay with the M9 as every comparison, I've selected the M9. The attraction of the 240 though is big LCD display at the back and the usability at high ISO. In other words, is it worthwhile to spend a few thousands of dollars as a catalyst to encourage me to pick up my Leica more to take pictures that are of similar result - or is it better to save the $$ and instill more self-discipline and just stick to the M9. I am still surprised that folks have the expectation that the M sensor was going to be some kind of breakthrough improvement over the M9's. It is, in a way... and that is that you are now hard-pressed to tell the difference between a CCD sensor's output and that of a CMOS sensor. That's pretty remarkable, actually. To expect it to better the M9's performance, though is a stretch. Perhaps the next generations of this particular CMOS may find those performance enhancements folks thought should be there... but that they've essentially replicated the look of a CCD sensor in a CMOS sensor is the breakthrough. The CMOS sensor itself is the breakthrough that allows for the expanded feature set of the M. If you want an M, you'll want it for it's feature set, not it's "improved image quality." It's a camera that does what the M9 does well, but is aimed at a market that largely, are NOT current M9 owners. Unless you want live-view, video, a slightly higher noise-less ISO, and weather-proofing. Bluetooth and the App. You could move those functions to your cell phone or tablet computer. When it's possible to control a miniature helicopter with a phone over bluetooth, it should not pose any fundamental difficulties to do a few settings on a still camera. So, you want a simpler camera with fewer features that you then have to carry around and use another device to do the settings necessary to use the features that are on your camera? That seems to be a fundamental paradox. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tanks Posted March 20, 2013 Share #99 Posted March 20, 2013 I am not enthusiastic about the M at all. I have my personal reasons though:... Digital and software is very much associated with work for me. One of the primary reasons for me to choose the MM was the basic nature of the camera. I wanted to get away from DSLR cameras not because of their size and weight only, but also to get away from the technology and all the software and gadget fuzz. ... The MM is so basic and that´s what I love about it. ... However, even with the MM don't you have to be an expert in LR or PS in order to process the raw files? Let's face it just about every photographer also has to be a software technician in order to get the most out of his/her gear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 20, 2013 Share #100 Posted March 20, 2013 I agree that the camera I was describing would need a small LCD (on the top plate would be fine) for displaying battery life, shots remaining, ISO setting and, perhaps (like that on the Hasselblad H grip) a small histogram. If it was a RAW-only camera there would be no need for any buttons on the back – formatting could be done via a button located by the card slot (hidden by the base plate when the camera is being used) and ISO could be changed via a lift-up shutter speed dial like the RD1 (which is admittedly not the 'Leica way') or a simple MP/M7 style rear dial. What a fantastic idea! A raw only stills camera, with no preview, no live view and no video. Menu settings could easily be by blue tooth to a phone app, or USB port (which could allow charging and tethering). So, what would you need to control on the camera - ISO, you'd want to know how full the SD card is, battery strength, and histogram would be nice, and maybe white balance and EV compensation. I wouldn't like to clutter up the top deck - I like the traditional Leica script and a clean top ... The only thing that gives me pause for thought is live view on the M camera - it is a great leap forward, allowing access to legacy lenses, providing framing for all focal lengths without needing an external view finder, and focus confirmation, ... But then, we're talking about a traditional M! Imagine the simplicity of such a camera! You set what you want from the phone or computer, and away you go! Imagine the extreme - a camera where you set ISO, aperture and shutter, framing and focussing, and anything else is done from either your phone or computer. I'd buy one! Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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