Thomas Chen Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share #101 Posted March 5, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) There has been too much mental masturbation here and not enough photography Thomas, please go out with your M8. Dear Mr. MarkP, Thank you very much for comments. I do enjoy D-Lux 5 & 6 so much and can afford waiting more two months for the M240. M8 is a vintage for me. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 5, 2013 Posted March 5, 2013 Hi Thomas Chen, Take a look here Managing Viewing the Best from M240. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Dougg Posted March 5, 2013 Share #102 Posted March 5, 2013 It seems to me that all this is a matter of Mr Chen’s social status among his friends. His status will be enhanced if he can create persuasive and convincing arguments that they will accept and act on. This I think is a powerful motivation to drive research and learning. As to the JPEG preference, I rather think this is the digital equivalent of shooting slide film. Transparency film is about as “direct from camera” as film photos can be. There is a long history of Leica enthusiasts shooting slides and showing them to family and friends without any further processing work. If the out-of-camera JPEG files were of presentable quality, then that could be impressive and persuasive in comparison with JPEGs from Mr Chen’s friends’ cameras. Just a thought... Also, Mr Chen is receiving some rough treatment here I think, and to his credit he remains admirably courteous. Best wishes Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted March 5, 2013 Share #103 Posted March 5, 2013 Thanks very much Doug. You may well be right about those two points. In the last weeks, I have spent a lot of time trying to understand Mr. Chen and help him. If that is interpreted as a rough treatment we certainly have a communication problem on our hands. Luckily Mr. Chen teaches a course at National Cheng Kung University, in which the number one goal is "Students should be able to communicate effectively verbally and in writing." So he should be able to solve that communication problem. Are you willing to take it over from here, Doug? Since I feel I can do very little anymore... Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougg Posted March 5, 2013 Share #104 Posted March 5, 2013 Hi Bert... I have no pony in this race. As an engineer, I cannot resist thinking in a problem-solving way. I saw that this thread had a problem with communications at cross-purposes, and with frustration on all sides. If I’m right in some part of my suppositions, then hopefully this can aid mutual understanding and satisfactory conclusions. Some earlier participants have dropped out of the conversation, likely through frustration. Lindolfi, I am impressed at your efforts to respond reasonably. Mr Chen has taken sudden diversions, or what seem like diversions. Some technical material may well be potential parts of his pro-Leica presentation, for our consideration and feedback. Also there has been apparently a lack of direct responsiveness. But I think these issues may just point up the communication problems. Carry on! Best wishes Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted March 5, 2013 Share #105 Posted March 5, 2013 I have continuously followed the whole thread and withheld from posting since I gave up the last time... But now again you are back where we started... Mitch, Thanks for comments. As for my question about M8, I sent pictures only to Bert for I suppose he can help me answering the question, however, not yet. I didn't send pictures to any other people including you. You know that the cropping factor of M8 that deprives the image of outer field of "Bokeh" rendering. I did taking pictures with M8 for around 200 exposures and converted to use other Leica products that satisfies me better. You are entitled to skip the MTF something because you know it quite well. I have explained to Bert why I do the series of posts concerning "managing viewing the best from M240". They are for some M240 prospects in my part of world. I'm just a pure Leica aficionado who always pursues "the best" defined by myself, nothing else. You don't need to guess my motivation, that's not worthwhile. Perhaps I don't understand the nature and culture of Leica User Forum and I'm adapting. Before I get the M240, I will continue to be active in the thread "Managing viewing the best from M240" and dissapear as soon as the M240 arrives my hand. I do appreciate your care and warm treatment, hopefully my response doesn't offend you. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Again you state: You know that the cropping factor of M8 that deprives the image of outer field of "Bokeh" rendering. You are of course entitled to have your own opinion, but... Again you are putting words together that doesn't make any photographic sense... Doug please take over form here... Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share #106 Posted March 5, 2013 It seems to me that all this is a matter of Mr Chen’s social status among his friends. His status will be enhanced if he can create persuasive and convincing arguments that they will accept and act on. This I think is a powerful motivation to drive research and learning. As to the JPEG preference, I rather think this is the digital equivalent of shooting slide film. Transparency film is about as “direct from camera” as film photos can be. There is a long history of Leica enthusiasts shooting slides and showing them to family and friends without any further processing work. If the out-of-camera JPEG files were of presentable quality, then that could be impressive and persuasive in comparison with JPEGs from Mr Chen’s friends’ cameras. Just a thought... Also, Mr Chen is receiving some rough treatment here I think, and to his credit he remains admirably courteous. Best wishes Doug Doug, I absoultely agree with your point. One thing more, with the evidence I can persuade them to buy M240 and become the opinion leader. I don't mind the rudeness that should not have been here (from gentlemen using Leica), I just care the image quality. Thank you so much. Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share #107 Posted March 6, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Are you willing to take it over from here, Doug? Since I feel I can do very little anymore... Thanks! Bert, I really appreciate your help as I learned a lot in the past few weeks. I had problems in communication at earlier posts due to my lack of "appropriate terminology" in digital photography, now I can handle them better. You have convinced me of buying "the best" postprocessing software -Adobe Photoshop CS6. This is your credit. Leica flagship store here called me up for invitation of the coming M240 debut event. I will bring a Summilux 35/1.4 ASPH (1994 version), Sandisk card and D-Lux 6 there. That will be a fact-finding trip. I agree that only via postprocessing one can get "the best" image from digital camera. However, My friends they (even myself) are very keen in cost/performance analysis, by no means accept an image straight out of a US$ 7000 Leica product to be inferior to that of a US$ 800 Leica. I will have no any "face" to recommend them to by M240 (I don't know what is your opinion?). That the reason why I say ".......a shade better than that of D-Lux 6". Dugg has almost delineated 99.9% of my motivation. As a matter of fact, I told you already my motive several times. Anyway I recognize that you are a noble man who deserves me in making a friendship. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share #108 Posted March 6, 2013 I have continuously followed the whole thread and withheld from posting since I gave up the last time... But now again you are back where we started... Again you state: You know that the cropping factor of M8 that deprives the image of outer field of "Bokeh" rendering. You are of course entitled to have your own opinion, but... Again you are putting words together that doesn't make any photographic sense... Doug please take over form here... Thanks! Eric, Please see my next post about "Bokeh + MTF diagram = better 3D rendering " then you may undersatand what I mean better. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougg Posted March 6, 2013 Share #109 Posted March 6, 2013 I'm not convinced MTF has a direct relationship with bokeh, but certainly others are better informed. Some generalities: Modern aspheric lenses tend not to have gentle pleasant bokeh, as they are too well-corrected optically. Some older fast lenses with coma have swirly bokeh that some like and some find dizzying. Catadioptric (mirror) lenses are the worst, producing annular highlights in the bokeh. Undercorrected spherical aberration is more pleasant for far-bokeh than near-bokeh, and vice-versa for overcorrected. Generally, larger-format cameras have smoother gentler bokeh than smaller cameras, likely due to less magnification needed for display. The unpleasant artifacts just are not blown up as much, not as visible. The difference here between M8 and M240 should be minor. And in this regard, Leica S2 will tend to have more pleasant bokeh than M240, and in turn larger formats will be even better. There comes a stopping point for each user to decide "this is good enough" and some larger camera is just too inconvenient for their purposes. Here's a good discussion about optics and bokeh: bokeh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted March 6, 2013 Share #110 Posted March 6, 2013 Eric, Please see my next post about "Bokeh + MTF diagram = better 3D rendering " then you may undersatand what I mean better. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted March 6, 2013 Share #111 Posted March 6, 2013 .....Generally, larger-format cameras have smoother gentler bokeh than smaller cameras...... Yes this may very well be the case but: The same lens has the same Bokeh no matter how much you crop the image! The 'over all character' of the Bokeh will not change between M8 and M-240 The shift in body from M8 to M-240 is, among other things, going to change the crop; The far corners of the image will be cropped out. So on M-240 you see more vignetting and for most lenses, less sharp corners wide open (completely as the case with any M9) The resolution of the sensor in M8 is identical to M9, the small increase in resolution up to M-240 is completely negligible IMHO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 6, 2013 Share #112 Posted March 6, 2013 Thomas, you are confusing two things: Leica as a tool for the craftsmaan and Leica as a status symbol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted March 6, 2013 Share #113 Posted March 6, 2013 Perhaps this document I made sheds some light on the issue of out of focus rendering and sensor size: http://www.photoplaza.nl/lindolfi/sensorsizeoof3.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted March 6, 2013 Share #114 Posted March 6, 2013 Perhaps this document I made sheds some light on the issue of out of focus rendering and sensor size: http://www.photoplaza.nl/lindolfi/sensorsizeoof3.pdf Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted March 6, 2013 Share #115 Posted March 6, 2013 ... Generally, larger-format cameras have smoother gentler bokeh than smaller cameras, likely due to less magnification needed for display. The unpleasant artifacts just are not blown up as much, not as visible. The difference here between M8 and M240 should be minor. And in this regard, Leica S2 will tend to have more pleasant bokeh than M240, and in turn larger formats will be even better. There comes a stopping point for each user to decide "this is good enough" and some larger camera is just too inconvenient for their purposes. Here's a good discussion about optics and bokeh: bokeh The article doesn't mention sensor size or camera format at all... and rightly so! Image 6 and 9 very clearly show the difference in Bokeh for different lenses... very well done illustration! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share #116 Posted March 6, 2013 The article doesn't mention sensor size or camera format at all... and rightly so! Image 6 and 9 very clearly show the difference in Bokeh for different lenses... very well done illustration! Thanks Bokeh + MTF diagram = better 3D-like rendition? (3) Ladies and Gentlemen, I planned to discuss through MTF diagram the three-dimensional (3D) rendition capabilities of three pcs.of Leica lense. Since Eric is interested in the topic about “Bokeh”, I make it first. Fig. D was missed in the last post, hereby I put it on this post again. Fig. E is a sketch for comparing sensor sizes between M8 and M9 or M240, it will be useful in discussing the MTF diagram later on. Distance from sensor (image) center to left & right edge Center to upper & lower edge Center to tip of corner M8 9 mm 13.5 mm 16 mm M9/M240 12 mm 18 mm 21 mm Fig. F and Fig. G are the same motif taken respectively by M8 and D-Lux 6, shooting conditions are identical except the aperture size wide open. As most Leica M lenses before 2006 were designed for 35mm format full frame film (24mm x 36mm), when put on M8 body, the rays traverses through lense cover not only M8 sensor (18 mm x 32 mm, with a cropping factor of 1.33), but also In the outskirt where no any light is captured by sensor. Therefore, the unshrpness or “Bokeh” clues in this area that show up in the full frame image now is missing in the image created by M8. Please compare the image Fig. F & G to see the difference. Perhaps “bad bokeh” or “no bokeh” is not an appropriate term to describe the above situation happened in M8. For better communication in the future, how about the term “missing bokeh in M8”? Best Regards, Thomas Chen Fig. D Direction of stripes to be measured.pdf Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/198348-managing-viewing-the-best-from-m240/?do=findComment&comment=2262445'>More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share #117 Posted March 6, 2013 Thomas, you are confusing two things: Leica as a tool for the craftsmaan and Leica as a status symbol. Mr. Jaap, Maybe another misunderstanding ! Communication is so important. The "social status" Dougg means is the "knowledge and craftman status in my Leica M photography user gang" not the ordinary society people live in. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted March 6, 2013 Share #118 Posted March 6, 2013 Dear Thomas, Quoting you: Perhaps “bad bokeh” or “no bokeh” is not an appropriate term to describe the above situation happened in M8. For better communication in the future, how about the term “missing bokeh in M8”? AFAIK all other people, reviewers, photographers or optics specialists within photography refer to this as: "Far corners" or something similar, when referring to Sharpness or Resolution I have never heard anybody other than you Thomas, referring to this as having anything to do with Bokeh. For most lenses the 1.33 crop of the M8 is an 'added bonus' that you instantly have the final image, where you have very good sharpness and resolution across the whole image area.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share #119 Posted March 6, 2013 I'm not convinced MTF has a direct relationship with bokeh, but certainly others are better informed. Some generalities: Modern aspheric lenses tend not to have gentle pleasant bokeh, as they are too well-corrected optically. Some older fast lenses with coma have swirly bokeh that some like and some find dizzying. Dougg, I agree that Bokeh has little to do with MTF, however, that previous lense gives pleasant bokeh depends. This is the statement in my old post: “Bokeh” involves the unsharpness before and behind the sharp “focal plane”, while “MTF diagram” tells us clues about the unsharpness in relation to sharpness “on” the focal plane. The synergy of these two kinds of relationships between unsharpness and sharpness, if manipulated well, could enables Leica lenses to much enrich our photography experiences.” Bert told me something about a three-dimensional chart to define the relationship. However, information across lense spectrum is in shortage. What I’m doing is making propositions about the relationship between MTF and 3D-like rendition and then empirically test them by making experiments, trying to find a ball park rule in between. I’m not sure this endeavor can be successful, however, making an effort to find an approach taking pictures by both brain and eyes, not only by eyes. Thanks to M-R adapter, I will be able to test on M240 some R lenses their propensity in creating 3D-like look is stronger than M lenses. I will take one R, two M lenses to discuss in the next post. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share #120 Posted March 6, 2013 For most lenses the 1.33 crop of the M8 is an 'added bonus' that you instantly have the final image, where you have very good sharpness and resolution across the whole image area.... Dear Eric, Thank you now I learn a correct terminology. The 1.33 crop factor also makes a 90mm lense as if a 135mm. I think professional photographer likes M8 based on what you say. However, amatuer like me prefer some kind of "fun" instead of "seriousness" in the picture. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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