Official Response from Leica on Laundry List

[sam3k]

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Great feedback, thanks for the legwork Guy. Of course, it also gives me lots of new ideas.

 

For example.... hmm, so, I'm just thinking of this now -- maybe it's already been discussed. Since we don't have an ISO knob, I'd like a way to change ISO more rapidly.

 

Here's one idea. If you press SET now and press up or down you get the ISO menu to appear. Then you have to up/down and press SET again. One simple implementation that I'd appreciate is this: HOLD SET and use up down to change ISO. Then release SET to commit. This is almost how it works now anyway.

 

I'd like to be able to use the left and right buttons to change values in the set menu.

 

E.g. Press set, press up/down to get to the ISO entry, and then press left/right to change it.

 

I might even use the EV comp. if it was that quick to access.

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[colorflow]

Guy, first many thanks for your work on behalf of all of us.

 

Question 11, sudden death, is most important to me. Their short answer may be excused since there were only a "few" of this problem reported before PMA. But there have been quite a few more reports of sudden death around PMA time and after. My M8 is still in Solms, and since they have not identified the problem, I will have no confidence in the camera when it returns. This also prevented me from getting a second body. Would like to get updates/progress reports from Leica on this.

 

Alan

[hankg]

I use the 1.25 on all the time from 28 up and for wider than the 28 I use a external finder but keep the 1.25 on for focusing. It seems to work pretty good for me.

 

I'm using the 1.33 Megaperls (50 and up) and it's great but the extra glass does cut the amount of light in that magnificent viewfinder. I think the magnification they have chosen for the M8 is the best for the widest number of users but at some point down the road it would be nice to have the option of .85.

 

Although I thought it would be the 35mm, it looks like the 50/1.4 preASPH is on its way to being my walking around lens. Would definitely benefit from .85

[robsteve]

The clipping is in the DNG file. I open it using Lightroom. I can see the same clipping on the DNG (no color space of profile here) and on the JPG (exported to JPG sRGB). I can see the same problem in other cases too, with highlights on skins.

 

These areas do not show as clipping on the M8 info display even when zoomed into them?

 

Can you recover from the clipping using the recovery slider in LightRoom?

[Riley]

I know its been said before, but i would like to comment on what other camera manufacturer would respond in this fashion to so many adjustments and questions. I truly hope it works out for the better of the M8 and that more people are more satisfied.

 

Next character that feels the need to trash Guy might take a second or two to think about this process.

 

cheers in my #1000th post !

[rosuna]

These areas do not show as clipping on the M8 info display even when zoomed into them?

 

Can you recover from the clipping using the recovery slider in LightRoom?

 

No, I cannot see any clipping. The recovery slider cannot correct the problem. I see this same problem in several pictures, involving bright lights and skin. I would like to preserve more tonal range from the original file. I am not convinced by the arguments about the absence of negative effects of the 8-bit compressing. Detail in the highlights are lost, but Leica says it is "unnseen" in real cases.

[andybarton]

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Leica's response to these issues is very welcome, open and honest, and they are to be congratulated for engaging with us here.

 

What about the dirty sock at the bottom of the laundry basket that is the DMR firmware 1.3?

 

I assume that this is now confined to that gap between the washing machine and the tumble drier - never to see the light of day again...

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy, first many thanks for your work on behalf of all of us.

 

Question 11, sudden death, is most important to me. Their short answer may be excused since there were only a "few" of this problem reported before PMA. But there have been quite a few more reports of sudden death around PMA time and after. My M8 is still in Solms, and since they have not identified the problem, I will have no confidence in the camera when it returns. This also prevented me from getting a second body. Would like to get updates/progress reports from Leica on this.

 

Alan

 

 

Alan I can say without a doubt that yours truly has really been all over this one more than anything, Stefan and Christain have heard my fair share on this one, it is the biggest issue we have and they know that very well. I do know there are a few camera's on the engineering bench being torn apart to figure this out. We talked about it a lot , it is pretty random and very hard to pin point but the symptoms are very similar so hopefully very soon the bright light will kick on saying we solved it.

 

 

Riley congrats

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Leica's response to these issues is very welcome, open and honest, and they are to be congratulated for engaging with us here.

 

What about the dirty sock at the bottom of the laundry basket that is the DMR firmware 1.3?

 

I assume that this is now confined to that gap between the washing machine and the tumble drier - never to see the light of day again...

 

 

This is the 64 thousand dollar question. Maybe we can get a answer in the FAQ that there going to post this week. I did send them a link to this thread so hopefully they can address this.

[sdai]

This is the 64 thousand dollar question.

 

That should be 64 hundred, Guy ... LOL

 

By the way, I found the 03/2007 issue of Color Foto under my table in the office so the number of S5 is there, it has a whopping 10.5 stops of DR at ISO 100 and still maintains 10 stops at ISO 800 and 9 stops at ISO1600 but ... I guarantee you I won't hijack your thread. ROFL

[scott kirkpatrick]

Guy, thanks a lot for compiling this list and thanks to Leica for taking the time to crawl through it with us. I realize it was a pretty unfiltered list of questions that had appeared in the forums, so some of the questions missed their marks, but most of those are questions that we pretty much know the answers to. Here's my reading of what we can learn from this round:

 

the good news:

Leica is working on the green streaks (corrupt signal from the very edge of frame), and expects to have an answer soon. They realize that the AWB (critical for Jpeg shooters, just an annoyance for the rest) is a mess and are starting over, even if that means don't expect a fix in the same timeframe as the first serious vignetting corrections.They will also consider (not right away) means of preloading the EXIF and exerting some control over the formatting of the flash cards and probably the resulting stored files. I don't see this happening on the back of the camera, so it probably means defining some files on the card that will have effect at firmware load time. The extra color map table was, as hinted, just for ACR and Lightroom (half the customers, if the recent poll is correct), and has no effect on tools, like C1, that use standard icc profiles. Several of the "sudden-death with extreme prejudice" cameras are being analyzed at Solms. I expect these exposures will get fixed with no public notice. We benefit, and I can't blame them for doing this stuff discreetly.

 

The bad news:

Leica still seems to be shy of trusting us with some controls that have uncertain business impact, like D2-style lens specification, or putting the estimated aperture into the EXIF -- why don't they stick it into Maker Notes and call it something safe, like "estimated aperture?" They haven't realized that there is a real opportunity in creating a thin external flash adapter, with a viewfinder socket on top of it -- we should find ways of keeping this active. They don't seem to be recognizing the jumpy playback scroll characteristics of 1.092 (see questions 13 and 27) -- we need to do a better job of pinning down the scenario in which this happens, but it is certainly frequent and obvious. Perhaps this is just so clearly minor compared with vignetting, green lines, and freezeups that it will get fixed without notice.

 

Interesting answers, would like to know more:

The wakeup timing (question 1), the shutter sound (question 6), what was going on with B/W previews and how they think it should be handled (5).

 

Questions which show we need to do our homework better before presenting a underdescribed, unreproduced bug:

The stuff where a card had problems. Perhaps the poll listing cards in use will help, and perhaps Leica will accelerate SDHC support as the market starts to make those cards attractive. The split sensor example, which showed up on the forum last year. Has that never happened again? If so, forget it, but that was one scary picture.

 

The question about how Leica chose its filters and isn't the Heliopan better got deflected, but it seems valid. If question 21 was about firmware, I think they could have answered it -- it seems that filter on/filter off will be an option that can be set somewhere in a menu.

 

The question about why we can't see the maximum aperture of a coded lens -- it's in the EXIF, isn't that good enough? Of course it may not be there for ALL lenses, but that will get fixed if we keep watching and reporting.

 

I liked the clear answer (no way!) to the request for some sort of sliding auto-ISO behavior.

 

I think we need to keep pressing for faster, more accessible ways to access ISO and exposure correction with one hand and with fewer button presses.

 

And the next time we present a forum concern summary, it would be great to develop priorities, as I am sure they also are doing. Maybe they will be less afraid of forum craziness if we show some engineering savvy.

 

scott

[ibogost]

I'd like to be able to use the left and right buttons to change values in the set menu.

 

E.g. Press set, press up/down to get to the ISO entry, and then press left/right to change it.

 

I might even use the EV comp. if it was that quick to access.

 

Oooh, nice. So, press or hold SET, up/down for ISO and left/right for EV comp. That would be slick. I still like the hold and release SET idea because it's fewer presses.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy, thanks a lot for compiling this list and thanks to Leica for taking the time to crawl through it with us. I realize it was a pretty unfiltered list of questions that had appeared in the forums, so some of the questions missed their marks, but most of those are questions that we pretty much know the answers to. Here's my reading of what we can learn from this round:

 

the good news:

Leica is working on the green streaks (corrupt signal from the very edge of frame), and expects to have an answer soon. They realize that the AWB (critical for Jpeg shooters, just an annoyance for the rest) is a mess and are starting over, even if that means don't expect a fix in the same timeframe as the first serious vignetting corrections.They will also consider (not right away) means of preloading the EXIF and exerting some control over the formatting of the flash cards and probably the resulting stored files. I don't see this happening on the back of the camera, so it probably means defining some files on the card that will have effect at firmware load time. The extra color map table was, as hinted, just for ACR and Lightroom (half the customers, if the recent poll is correct), and has no effect on tools, like C1, that use standard icc profiles. Several of the "sudden-death with extreme prejudice" cameras are being analyzed at Solms. I expect these exposures will get fixed with no public notice. We benefit, and I can't blame them for doing this stuff discreetly.

 

The bad news:

Leica still seems to be shy of trusting us with some controls that have uncertain business impact, like D2-style lens specification, or putting the estimated aperture into the EXIF -- why don't they stick it into Maker Notes and call it something safe, like "estimated aperture?" They haven't realized that there is a real opportunity in creating a thin external flash adapter, with a viewfinder socket on top of it -- we should find ways of keeping this active. They don't seem to be recognizing the jumpy playback scroll characteristics of 1.092 (see questions 13 and 27) -- we need to do a better job of pinning down the scenario in which this happens, but it is certainly frequent and obvious. Perhaps this is just so clearly minor compared with vignetting, green lines, and freezeups that it will get fixed without notice.

 

Interesting answers, would like to know more:

The wakeup timing (question 1), the shutter sound (question 6), what was going on with B/W previews and how they think it should be handled (5).

 

Questions which show we need to do our homework better before presenting a underdescribed, unreproduced bug:

The stuff where a card had problems. Perhaps the poll listing cards in use will help, and perhaps Leica will accelerate SDHC support as the market starts to make those cards attractive. The split sensor example, which showed up on the forum last year. Has that never happened again? If so, forget it, but that was one scary picture.

 

The question about how Leica chose its filters and isn't the Heliopan better got deflected, but it seems valid. If question 21 was about firmware, I think they could have answered it -- it seems that filter on/filter off will be an option that can be set somewhere in a menu.

 

The question about why we can't see the maximum aperture of a coded lens -- it's in the EXIF, isn't that good enough? Of course it may not be there for ALL lenses, but that will get fixed if we keep watching and reporting.

 

I liked the clear answer (no way!) to the request for some sort of sliding auto-ISO behavior.

 

I think we need to keep pressing for faster, more accessible ways to access ISO and exposure correction with one hand and with fewer button presses.

 

And the next time we present a forum concern summary, it would be great to develop priorities, as I am sure they also are doing. Maybe they will be less afraid of forum craziness if we show some engineering savvy.

 

scott

 

Great points Scott, yes i admit we or I was a little haphazard on how I presented the questions and such. I look at this as a more way to engage in communications with the end user and leica. I am really hoping that the FAQ is more in depth on some of these issues and also some of the questions asked today will appear as well. I view this as a beginning and not a end. So we have made some progress on many fronts fixes and communications and needs and desires for the end users. i think now is the time we really start getting things rolling

[carstenw]

Carsten, you don't need to. When you put the card in a card reader sort by file type. All of the Jpegs will disappear to the bottom (or top) of the file window. Copy the DNGs, ignore the Jpegs and once copied, format the card in the camera.

 

I use the Finder in column view, so I would have to switch to detail view, sort by type, delete the JPGs, switch back to column view... I do prefer it if the camera supports this workflow. I think this is an important feature for a camera such as this.

[carstenw]

The clipping is in the DNG file. I open it using Lightroom. I can see the same clipping on the DNG (no color space of profile here) and on the JPG (exported to JPG sRGB). I can see the same problem in other cases too, with highlights on skins.

 

Are you using an IR filter? I wonder if is is an overdose of IR which ruins the highlight. I haven't seen it, but I use IR filters mostly.

[xrogers]

Thanks to Guy for getting these questions to Leica, and to Leica for their responses.

 

I would like to have a full B&W workflow for DNG-only capture.

 

Yes, please, to the black-and-white DNG-only workflow! Just the ability to display and evaluate the review image in black and white. The reasons why:

 

1. Batching the JPGs for mass delete doesn't work for me, because occasionally I do use straight jpg.

 

2. The jpgs do take space---for me, that space is wasted.

 

3. The camera is so much faster shooting straight DNG---about two seconds to write out an exposure vs. five seconds for jpg. I never fill the buffer when shooting dng, but sometimes do when shooting dng+jpg. Review is so much faster when the camera isn't busy writing to the card. After using DNG only, the camera feels slow in DNG+jpg.

 

Add to this Leica's B&W heritage, and it seems a natural. I don't need a dedicated B&W digital, the M8 is great for it---just let me review and zoom in monochrome or color, as I see fit.

 

What a great, simple, unique feature that would be available only on the M8!

 

Until later,

 

Clyde Rogers

[LJL]

Guy,

A bit late to the congratulations and thank you party, but, as you know, I was cranking stuff out for clients. To chime in with many others, thank you very much for staying on this and then posting the responses. This sort of follow-through is greatly appreciated, and there are lots of important issues.

 

Also, congrats on your announcing your more expanded role with all of this. Leica stands to benefit as much if not more than a few of us trying to get our points across on how things work or do not work, or what may make them work better.

 

As others have covered a lot of the ground already, I will not belabor the issues. My hot buttons, as you know are around the "sudden death" issue...there are electrical/electronic/power gremlins in there that need to be sorted and fixed. The other topic is the lens coding selection thing. While I understand Lecia's response, it seems a bit disengenous to me. If this is a pro level camera, and if pros and serious others are using this, why is there some need to protect us from ourselves? That just does not make sense. Heck, we can screw up a lot of ways right now with the camera, so saying it would be better for us not to select the lenses in a menu for in-camera software correction is a bit lame, and rather short-sighted, in my opinion. The argument about a more "closed system" comes to mind, and in Leica's case, that will work against them. Too much good older glass and CV and Zeiss glass out there to ignore. By creating the ability for photogs to pick and choose their glass, and still take advantage of the camera's capabilities could result in more body sales and then even more glass sales. This is a topic worth revisiting with them for many reasons. They had been marketing the M8 as proudling be able to take advantage of 50+ year of great lenses. Why back away from that for a rather simple menu selection and some coding scheme for other lenses. Not asking for all the lenses to be listed. I am perfectly happy using a selection for the WATE at 16mm for something like the CV 15/4.5, or the 24/2.8 for a Zeiss 25/2.8 lens, but allow me to go in and make that selection. Just my opinion.

 

Again, thanks for all your efforts, and do not be afraid to ask for input, as you can see there are quite a few folks offering up great ideas as well as persepctives that really matter as users of Leica equipment. As I said, this is all as good or better for Leica than any focus group or random testers they could ever select.

 

LJ

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I agree this forum is the M8 Bible. It's all here

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[hankg]

Guy,

 

Perhaps you can split a future list in 2: fixes and features. What problems are users most concerned about and what features or changes in current features (that are doable with the current camera) do users want most. A series of polls might help prioritize things and I'm sure many here would pitch in so you don't get saddled with a load of admin work. You can certainly count me in. Thanks for your efforts so far.

[Jager]

Laundry List.

 

Questions from LEICA M8 users collected by Guy Mancuso.

Answers from the Leica Camera AG team.

 

 

 

26 Expansion of lens line

 

More good stuff to come!!

 

 

 

Oh God!