The M240 is really taking a toll...

[k-hawinkler]

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Hi urs0polar,

 

Thanks for your more detailed explanation. I can appreciate your points of view.

I meant no harm and apologize if I offended you. Sorry about that. Here is my story.

 

Three years ago I first became fully aware of Leica's rangefinder and got my first Leica items, namely an M9 and some M lenses.

Somewhat later I learned about Visoflexes, Bellows, and Telyts.

I am fascinated by the fact that one can combine old optical and mechanical with brand new electronic items to good effect.

 

Finally, I learned about Leica R, its history and some of the amazing lenses that no longer are being made.

So, with the availability of mirror less cameras and adapters there finally was for me an avenue to use R lenses with latest technologies.

Therefore, about a year ago I acquired my first mirror less, live view camera and my first Leica R lens, the fabulous APO 280/4.

 

Now, with the M240 Leica is finally selling a latest technology camera that can utilize all these amazing treasures from Leica's past.

I consider the M240 and other mirror less cameras of various makes as complementary, each having their own market niche.

 

I hope you continue to enjoy your Leica gear as I do enjoy mine.

Good luck.

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[jaapv]

Glass in general is getting more expensive, even lenses that should be dirt cheap are unreasonably priced. To wit, almost any lens w/ an m-mount Minoltas, Konica are pulling in prices that were typically paid for a Leica model. Not to mention Voigts and Zeiss'.

It is unlikely that we will see prices drop simply because the amount of product is limited, especially in R lens. Any used telephoto R lens today will still be considerably cheaper than any future Leica telephoto lens in the future. The only caveat being the effect of an older analog lens on the digital image - especially color.

There are no "analog" lenses. The design principles of lenses are the same regardless whether you decide to put them on a sensor or a film.

[urs0polar]

Hi K-Hawinkler,

 

Thank you for the reply -- I don't take offense; I always enjoy reading your posts and learning from you and all the others on here with lots of knowledge and information to share.

 

I have a similar story to yours in a way. I started this whole money pit camera fetish with a Nikon D50 (of all things) back in 2005 or so. Then, my friend and I dared each other to get a Mamiya RB67 and shoot medium format film because it would be theoretically cheaper than buying new digital bodies every few years (how wrong we were...). Many other formats and fun followed, BUT, I always wanted a Leica. I happened upon a R8 with 50/1.4 for a great price locally on craigslist, and as soon as I got that, EVERYTHING (except my Technika 4x5) felt cheap. Uh-oh! Some more (well priced) R glass followed, along with an M6, and recently picking up a well-used M8, R3, and SL.

 

So, maybe I have a special spot for the R stuff because the R8 was my first Leica, and it was really an entirely different experience. I still lug it around everywhere.

 

You know, in a way, I should be very happy -- M240 folks will want R lenses in R mounts, which is ultimately good for us R-lovers. Between the motion-picture aperture de-clickers and the leitaxers, less and less R lenses are on the market anyhow (at least Leitaxing is reversible). Maybe this will bring some of them back.

 

You probably knew I might say this, but you should pick up a nice SL or R8/R9 to go with your R lenses so you can shoot film as well as digital with M240/M9; one wind of the film advance on the SL and you'll be hooked, guaranteed

[marknorton]

Will people who currently shoot sans tripod suddenly start using one when their M240 and R glass arrive?

 

For those afflicted with the affectation of using the word "sans" instead of "without", can I suggest you do at least use the German version, seeing as this is a German camera manufacturer forum. That word FYI is "ohne", as in "it's better to shoot an M ohne lenscap on".

[jonoslack]

K-Hawinkler and Jono,

 

In my earlier post, my point was not that putting R glass on the M240 is completely useless; on the contrary, it's probably going to be nice.

 

My point, which I admit was perhaps obscured in my rant, is that people who don't already have R glass lying around and are buying it *solely* in anticipation of the new M240 are likely to be disappointed as it's not going to be as nice as an M lens on an M body or an R lens on an R body or, secondarily, a DSLR. This is my opinion, I don't mind if you guys think different.

Oh - I didn't really read it as a rant - it seemed to me like the words of someone who hadn't tried R lenses using an EVF - that's all!

On an R camera - maybe, but on another dSLR, I'm quite certain in my own mind that a mirrorless setup is much nice to use than another dSLR

 

As andyedward said:

 

 

"Will people who currently shoot sans tripod suddenly start using one when their M240 and R glass arrive? I dont think so. Perhaps some of the R lenses currently being snapped up by those waiting for an M240 will return to the market at a more realistic price a few months after the M240 starts shipping?"

 

Again - whilst I absolutely agree that using R lenses on a Nikon or Canon is really a tripod job, I just don't think it is with an EVF - Andy makes it pretty clear that his experience is also using a dSLR.

 

My thoughts are right along these lines, and I hope so. Guys like K-H are already using their M9s as mirrorless backs for R glass evidently (to wonderful effect, I might add), and that proves what I perceive to be Andy's point: If that's your thing, you are already doing it with the M9; this M240 is going to be better and easier, but you are already doing it. There are already adapters on the market for R to NEX, for instance (Sony just announced a full-frame NEX too, by the way). So, if that's the case, there are lot of people who evidently are *not* doing it, but who are buying all the cool R lenses in anticipation of this magical synergy between the M240 and R glass. I feel that some of them are going to be disappointed. I hope they aren't, for their sake.

Well - I can only speak from personal experience; I bought some R lenses when the M240 was announced, and in the meantime I've been using them on a Sony A77, and also on an Olympus OMD - mainly the 28-90, the 80-210 f4 and the 180 f2.8 APO - none has been anywhere near a tripod, They're really easy and intuitive to use, manual focusing is a snip and the results have pushed me further into Leica territory. Again, all because of the EVF.

Sadly the M240 won't have sensor based IS, but I'm sure of the practical principle.

 

Jono, for the auto-compensating liveview on the M240, when the lens is stopped down to the desired aperture, the combination of large DOF and high gain would still make focusing more difficult than the traditional auto-aperture of a SLR, wouldn't it? I obviously haven't handled an M240 but I would think it would work this way?

 

Not in my experience. A combination of focus peaking (which the A77 has) and the ability to zoom in to the image means that you can focus well at any aperture - sure, if you focus at f8 it's not the same as focusing at f1.4, but then you have a much wider depth of field. Added to which, focusing at open aperture and then stopping down doesn't take into account any focus shift, and really does mean you need a tripod. It's quite easy to 'read' the focus on an EVF anyway, it acts a little like a ground glass screen.

 

Of course - if I'm right, and you can simply set the aperture you want, focus and shoot (with the camera sorting out either the ISO or the shutter speed to control the exposure) - it all becomes a very fluid experience. Very much like using an ordinary M lens in fact.

 

all the best

[jonoslack]

 

You probably knew I might say this, but you should pick up a nice SL or R8/R9 to go with your R lenses so you can shoot film as well as digital with M240/M9; one wind of the film advance on the SL and you'll be hooked, guaranteed

 

Shhhhhhhh

You mustn't say things like that - I hadn't thought of it . . . . but I can already feel my bank balance twitching!

[urs0polar]

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Oh - I didn't really read it as a rant - it seemed to me like the words of someone who hadn't tried R lenses using an EVF - that's all!

On an R camera - maybe, but on another dSLR, I'm quite certain in my own mind that a mirrorless setup is much nice to use than another dSLR

 

[...]

 

Again - whilst I absolutely agree that using R lenses on a Nikon or Canon is really a tripod job, I just don't think it is with an EVF - Andy makes it pretty clear that his experience is also using a dSLR.

 

[...]

 

Of course - if I'm right, and you can simply set the aperture you want, focus and shoot (with the camera sorting out either the ISO or the shutter speed to control the exposure) - it all becomes a very fluid experience. Very much like using an ordinary M lens in fact.

 

all the best

 

Hi Jono,

 

I can see where you are coming from. I have a Canon 5D (The first one) that I use for all my R lenses, and without live view, I pretty much only shoot wide open unless It's on a tripod (which it never is). So, for me, it's not as fluid of an experience as the film R bodies (and I love film anyhow so I'm not complaining too much).

 

It sounds like I've got to get me a 5DII or an A77 like you or something similar so I can have live view etc and get out of the digital stone age Then in 6 years I'll upgrade to a used M240.

[urs0polar]

Shhhhhhhh

You mustn't say things like that - I hadn't thought of it . . . . but I can already feel my bank balance twitching!

 

Uh-oh, now the market is ruined for those as well! (Make sure the lenses you would use on it are not ROM or 3rd-cam though if you choose an SL)

[jonoslack]

Uh-oh, now the market is ruined for those as well! (Make sure the lenses you would use on it are not ROM or 3rd-cam though if you choose an SL)

 

Thanks for the advice all but one of my lenses is ROM. I'll probably see reason, but I was drooling over a mint black R9 for €850 this afternoon. Terribly tempting. Terrifyingly tempting!

[jonoslack]

Hi Jono,

 

I can see where you are coming from. I have a Canon 5D (The first one) that I use for all my R lenses, and without live view, I pretty much only shoot wide open unless It's on a tripod (which it never is). So, for me, it's not as fluid of an experience as the film R bodies (and I love film anyhow so I'm not complaining too much).

 

It sounds like I've got to get me a 5DII or an A77 like you or something similar so I can have live view etc and get out of the digital stone age Then in 6 years I'll upgrade to a used M240.

 

It's not just Live View. It's the EVF that makes it work (for me). I can't hold anything that big away from my body. So maybe it's the A77 you need!

All the best

[urs0polar]

It's not just Live View. It's the EVF that makes it work (for me). I can't hold anything that big away from my body. So maybe it's the A77 you need!

All the best

 

I was thinking the same thing. Prices aren't bad for it either. I'd be giving up full frame, but gaining more usability. Then there's the A99. See, it's not that hard to convince each other to spend money!

[PeterP]

There are no "analog" lenses. The design principles of lenses are the same regardless whether you decide to put them on a sensor or a film.

My apologies , shouldn't have been lazy. Single coated as opposed to multicoated!

[algrove]

Sorry, but no! Not for luxury goods. For them prices have increased....

 

Leica products are not luxury goods. Even Leica executives comment on that exact point.

[jonoslack]

I was thinking the same thing. Prices aren't bad for it either. I'd be giving up full frame, but gaining more usability. Then there's the A99. See, it's not that hard to convince each other to spend money!

 

I had an A900 for several years - lovely files, I'm sure the A99 is the same - the problem being that you need to Leitax the lenses . . which means you need two sets of R lenses, one for the A99, one for the M(240)

[mmradman]

I had an A900 for several years - lovely files, I'm sure the A99 is the same - the problem being that you need to Leitax the lenses . . which means you need two sets of R lenses, one for the A99, one for the M(240)

 

Or Sony Alpha to M adapter.

[sblitz]

wow! those are indeed great shots and worthy of what you put together ... might even consider doing something like that myself. bees are much less likely to care if you are taking their picture.....

[jonoslack]

Or Sony Alpha to M adapter.

 

Good Thinking

[k-hawinkler]

Wouldn't an Extender still be a challenge?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[algrove]

I can tell you that I still cannot get my EOS-R adapter to work with focus confirmation light. I must follow a set of instructions to get the camera to think it has an EF lens on it which will program the chip for use on the 5D3 camera.

 

The sellers of these adapters should preprogram the dandelion chip based on what a buyer wants and then they will work straight out of the box. I would certainly pay for that type of service on top of the $20 base adapter price.

[urs0polar]

I can tell you that I still cannot get my EOS-R adapter to work with focus confirmation light. I must follow a set of instructions to get the camera to think it has an EF lens on it which will program the chip for use on the 5D3 camera.

 

I have a dandelion chip in an M645-EOS adapter from Fotodiox, and it is outright terrible. It takes over a second to light up, and by then I've moved, or the subject has moved, and thus it rarely if ever lights up. It really sucks.

 

So, I just got the manual focus fucus-screen for it, and I focus like it's an SL, never worrying about the stupid confirmation light.

 

The confirmation lights work great on Nikon with no chip (as long as your adapter pretends to be AIS) but like crap on EOS with the chip. It's pretty useless; I wouldn't pay extra for the chip. My Leica R to EOS adapter has no chip, and with the right focus screen, I don't miss focus confirmation.