The average aged won't buy a M240

[sfage]

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I think a lot of people buy Leica just because they want to be seen with one.

 

.... cuz, I'm going to let everyone in on a secret:

 

I've posted images here that were taken with the $178 canon 40mm pancake lens... "gee whizz, I sure like the colour and contrast and... isn't Leica just wonderful?!!"

 

 

Yes... yes, it certainly is.

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[lm_user]

I think all of the reasons / rationalizations for why one should buy a Leica M are interesting. However, I think people will buy them simply because they have the money and want one.

 

Thats why I bought my m8

[thrid]

The thought just struck me.

 

In my opinion the ME and M9, M9P are the cameras for the "old" Leica users.

 

Why?

 

As soon as we all have bought one, - the M8 users that still haven't, the M6 and MP users still contemplating their digital step- , there is no point in buying an M240.There will not be so much difference in image quality between the M9 sensor and the M240. This kind op quality goes by small steps nowadays. Maybe some buy, as a "second"an M 240 body, for the fortunate ones or the ones who think they need the newest camera on the block.

 

Again, are you a beta tester? Do you regularly have lunch with the engineers at Leica? How do you know how the sensor in the 240 will perform?

 

Small step? The M8/M9 sensor is +8 years old, which may as well be a millennium in the world of digital photography. It's about three generations behind today's cutting edge. That's not a small step. As someone who has actually made a living in digital imaging for the past 20 years I would be shocked, if there wasn't an enormous improvement in the overall performance of the M240 sensor.

 

I am talking here about the non professional users. There will be a market for the professional users, but that will remain a small one.

 

The market for pro users for whom the M is the right camera is a lot smaller than it used to be in it's glory days. Simply the way access is handled these days requires longer lenses for most jobs, a more sophisticated metering / flash system and higher operating speed. Most working photographers require a more flexible system, that can do everything from sophisticated flash work, to utilizing everything from tilt shift to long glass. The M8/M9 has also been too quirky or lacking in certain features (weather sealing) for most pro shooters. Obviously there are exceptions like Thorsten Overgaard, but he is not exactly running in a press pack or shooting sports. And last but not least most of them do not want to work with a camera that offers little or no automation. In short it's now a specialized tool, that will never again see the wide spread professional use it did in the 1950's and 60's.

 

Add to that, that these days the vast majority of working photographers can't afford at least two 240 bodies and lenses in addition to their other gear and it's pretty clear why more pros don't use the M line.

 

The M 240 is made for the new un-known- to-Leica market. The old market will be saturated in a year or two.

 

The unknown market? There are a few thousand posts on this forum, with M8/M9 owners clamoring for everything from better high iso performance to more exposure range, better battery life, a better LCD, bigger buffer, Live view, weather sealing, faster processing, more reliable electronics etc.

 

I noticed also very young people ( 17- 25 ) getting interested in the looks of these cameras.

 

The 'looks' of the camera? As in a fashion accessory looks or do you mean the manual rangefinder approach to photography?

 

The future of Leica is with them and their filming M camera.

 

The future always belongs to the youth, because the rest of us will be dead.

 

We, the averaged Leica user with an average age of 48 years, will stop buying cameras in two years from now.

 

You're right. All the old geezers with enough money to buy a 240 are going to just hold on to their M8/M9 bodies for sake of nostalgia or because they lack 20/20 vision and can't see the difference. None of them want a better performing sensor or be able to take their camera out in the rain, without it short circuiting. And those quirky M8/M9 electronics that make your camera randomly freeze up or fail to write to a card, just add to the charm. You're right. None of these people are going to buy a 240, even if they have the money.

 

Shades of "Apple ][ forever!" in that thinking.

 

That why Leica needs this M.

 

Leica needs this camera to stay competitive in a constantly changing market and because it's the camera they have been trying to build since they embarked on this adventure.

[tobey bilek]

I am 70 and might consider one. I have a relative who will give it a good home if necessary and he would not buy one for himself at this time.

 

On the other hand, I have a low mileage M8, around 6000, and a new M9P. Both of these are exceptionally fine cameras. Maybe I have bought my last one.

[Rick]

I am 70... Maybe I have bought my last one.

 

Nonsense!

[kidigital]

Contrary to popular myth, I think a large portion of Leica M shooters shoot with the system because they are like salmon that like to swim upstream. For better or worse, they like to zig when others zag. The thought of using and then actually using an M brings out a feeling for them of independence and thinking for themselves about how they wish to approach photography.

 

What's the point? Just that their independent streak probably grows with them into old age.

[malsop]

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I don't know why other people buy Leicas, but I know why I ordered an M Typ 240 as soon as they were announced.

 

I bought an M9 when they came out because I wanted something small to fit in my Harley saddlebags and leave enough room for a change of clothes when I'm on the road. From all the hype I assumed the M9 would be adequate. Coming from Canon and Nikon Pro systems, including Zeiss lenses for them, I was unprepared for the IQ one gets from a Leica M with Leica glass. I fell in love with the little critter and have since added rather too many Leica M lenses to the kit.

 

Since I shoot landscapes I like all the pixels I can get. The Typ 240 has more pixels than the M9 and Leica promises the CMOS sensor will deliver the IQ we've been getting with the M8/9 CCD sensors. After watching the progress from the M8, through the M8.2 to the M9 I think I can trust Leica on this point. Personally I'd be willing to give up a lot of pleasures just to scrape enough dough together to get the M Typ 240. I expect it will be an excellent tool for my work.

 

And by the way, I'm 70.

[bocaburger]

I won't say I'll never get an M240, but I don't feel any urge to get one. The M9 is all I want from a digital M. Nothing the M240 adds holds any interest for me.

[Paulus]

Why?

 

 

 

Again, are you a beta tester? Do you regularly have lunch with the engineers at Leica? How do you know how the sensor in the 240 will perform?

 

Small step? The M8/M9 sensor is +8 years old, which may as well be a millennium in the world of digital photography. It's about three generations behind today's cutting edge. That's not a small step. As someone who has actually made a living in digital imaging for the past 20 years I would be shocked, if there wasn't an enormous improvement in the overall performance of the M240 sensor.

 

 

 

The market for pro users for whom the M is the right camera is a lot smaller than it used to be in it's glory days. Simply the way access is handled these days requires longer lenses for most jobs, a more sophisticated metering / flash system and higher operating speed. Most working photographers require a more flexible system, that can do everything from sophisticated flash work, to utilizing everything from tilt shift to long glass. The M8/M9 has also been too quirky or lacking in certain features (weather sealing) for most pro shooters. Obviously there are exceptions like Thorsten Overgaard, but he is not exactly running in a press pack or shooting sports. And last but not least most of them do not want to work with a camera that offers little or no automation. In short it's now a specialized tool, that will never again see the wide spread professional use it did in the 1950's and 60's.

 

Add to that, that these days the vast majority of working photographers can't afford at least two 240 bodies and lenses in addition to their other gear and it's pretty clear why more pros don't use the M line.

 

 

 

The unknown market? There are a few thousand posts on this forum, with M8/M9 owners clamoring for everything from better high iso performance to more exposure range, better battery life, a better LCD, bigger buffer, Live view, weather sealing, faster processing, more reliable electronics etc.

 

 

 

The 'looks' of the camera? As in a fashion accessory looks or do you mean the manual rangefinder approach to photography?

 

 

 

The future always belongs to the youth, because the rest of us will be dead.

 

 

 

You're right. All the old geezers with enough money to buy a 240 are going to just hold on to their M8/M9 bodies for sake of nostalgia or because they lack 20/20 vision and can't see the difference. None of them want a better performing sensor or be able to take their camera out in the rain, without it short circuiting. And those quirky M8/M9 electronics that make your camera randomly freeze up or fail to write to a card, just add to the charm. You're right. None of these people are going to buy a 240, even if they have the money.

 

Shades of "Apple ][ forever!" in that thinking.

 

 

 

Leica needs this camera to stay competitive in a constantly changing market and because it's the camera they have been trying to build since they embarked on this adventure.

 

I am not a beta tester.

I do not lunch with engineers of Leica on a regular basis.

I do take my M9 in the rain and sometimes wish it was weather sealed, but I still have questions about the not so weather sealed lenses which have to be on the new M body.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/landscape-travel/237389-dungeness-nuclear-power-plant-surroundings-serie.html

 

I do not know why the M5 was called ugly. It was a great camera to work with. So maybe looks do count? Not only as in a fashion accessory but also in longterm classical look. I mean the outside of the camera.

[rramesh]

Age has nothing to do with buying a M240. Money and desire are it. Leica and this forum is doing a fantastic job in making people desire it.

[honcho]

I'm 59 this year. I have bought more cameras (film and digital) and lenses in the last decade than I did in the decade prior to my 50th birthday.

 

I have no intention of reversing the trend.

 

[wlaidlaw]

Well I am coming up to 67 and I put a New M on order during Photokina week. I have been using Leicas since I was old enough to be able to use the rangefinder (about 10 or 11). Like many people of my age, my eyesight acuity is not as good as it was. Focusing a 560mm Telyt with a Visoflex in low light, is a real challenge, as is a Noctilux. The EVF will be a real boon to me for both longer, fast and wide lenses. I have been using the EVF with long and zoom Leica lenses on an Olympus and the implementation is far better than I had expected. With focus peaking on the 240, that will be even more marked. I personally don't think age has anything to do with it but the pleasure and challenges of using a Leica is more what will sell the camera to all ages.

 

Wilson

[ayewing]

I doubt if there is any age at which one stops buying new photographic equipment. I am 74 and my current dilemma is should I get my nearly 2 year old gray M9 upgraded to M9P in chrome which I would have preferred had it been available at the time or order a new M240 which has features which I would use. I had not envisioned upgrading quite so soon.

 

I am pretty sure I will upgrade to the M240 at some point but I am inclined to wait until the early adopter test bed sorts out the wrinkles and supplies of the new camera become available.

[sblitz]

Well I am 57 and bought more in the past few years than I have in a long time but that is probably because I switched into Leica m9 and m4 but I feel like I am done for a while

 

On the other hand my dad is almost 91 and is still buying cameras and lenses and stuff, buying on eBay. He bids and waits and then tells me the great deal he got on one thing or another

 

Point is its in your blood or it's not and if it is age won't stop you

[thighslapper]

Well I'm getting ancient as well....

 

As long as Leica produce a camera that enhances my photographic experience them I'm in.....

 

If it had an array of complex menus, buttons and pointless rarely used functions I would be sticking with an M9......

[cirke]

People who will buy the new M:

 

a) Those who believe, the M will provide them with better pictures.

Those who are so fortunate, they don't have to feel guilt spending the next € 5500,-

c) Those who see the camera as a new way of making films and pictures at the same time.

d) Those who see the camera as a wonderful tool, because of it's enhanced sensor quality to shoot very big pictures. 2 by 3 meters landscape photography.

e) Macro and R lens users?

 

for me it will be :

 

f) Those who want EVF and Liveview to use easily long and short M lenses

 

and that is the only reason why I am changing my M9

[aeonblack]

People who will buy the M: People who have the money to do so (and some who do not) and want it.

 

Why do they want it? Just because. It's new. It's shiny. It might be better. They might make money reselling it. They have $7k sitting around that they want to spend and don't know how. It goes on an on. It doesn't matter. As long as people have money, they will buy things they want.

 

I have my own dedicated, full-featured wet darkroom. I can shoot medium format black and white very easily and with amazing results on my Mamiya 7ii. I have the ability (and sometimes the skill too! ) to take astounding black and white shots with that camera and film. But did that stop me from buying the M Monochrom? No. Because I wanted it and could afford it, I bought it. Same reason I bought the Mamiya. And really, the same reason I bought every other camera after my Canon AE-1. Did I need all the new bells and whistles? No, but I wanted them. People talk about things they "need" all the time, and it's completely pointless. You don't need any of this stuff. But who cares? We are all here because we bought things we didn't need because we wanted them.

 

Will I buy the M-E? Probably not. I would rather buy a used M9-P. If the IQ is going to end up being the same, I might as well save my money. Once I see the results from the M, if the high ISO performance is improved I'm going to probably save up for it. I don't like "hitting the ceiling" with my photography. Being limited by poor STN ratio at low ISO's is a complete burden, and while some of you might enjoy the way it forces you to shoot differently and think different, lets be honest: it's 2012, if you can't make a sensor that's free of most noise at 1600 ISO, you're wasting your time.

[sdk]

I’m almost 48 and may, or may not get an M Type 240 to replace my M9P. I would prefer higher resolution still, say 36 to 50 MP. I really hope the Type 240 and subsequent cameras have much better flatfield correction for color casts in the corners of images shot with wideangles than my M9P does. I have been really frustrated shooting snow scenes with my 24mm/3.8 Elmar and 28mm/2.8 Elmarit ASPH lenses, which show red and cyan corners with neutral subjects like snow and ice. Sure I can correct these color errors in post, but I don’t have to do this with my D800E. I really hope the CMOSIS sensors works better with wideangles than the Kodak designed sensor of the M9 series.

 

But even if the Type 240 does perform well, I may wait for the next resolution bump. I’m sure most of my M mount lenses will still far out-resolve 24MP, even 72MP may not be enough to really get all the detail many of these lenses could capture, and as a landscapist I would like to get as much detail as I can to make large prints that rival medium and large format color negative film.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Peter H]

Its 2013.

[aeonblack]

Its 2013.

 

Damn. I guess my brain is still in last year But, yes, what I meant was 2013. I think that adds to my point either way.