Coding. Why not in software?

[jaapv]

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Jaap,

'I think this is a bit of a non-argument....'

I'm glad you wrote that paragraph, I would have been much more indignant, especially as we are talking about the company that has only just got round to giving me auto exposure in the M7!

 

You did see I wrote no offense intended and included myself in the ranks of the idiots

 

However, I am from a generation that regards quick-return mirrors as stuff for softies.

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[rosuna]

I think this is a bit of a non-argument. It is not necessary to engineer a camera to this level of idiot-proof (no offense intended and including myself) After all, leave the shutter speed at the wrong setting without noticing: exposure all over the place. F

 

You have clear and visible indexes of the shutter speed and aperture, but you cannot know what is the selected lens except if you look for it. The same goes for the ISO (but the error is not so destructive) and the exposure compensation (this is dangerous only if you are in aperture priority).

 

It is not a question of idiots or smart people, as you can understand if you think a bit about it.

[larry]

Ruben,

 

I think your idea of having a selectable custom lens menu is an excellent one. Also, the lens selection could be displayed in the bar above the preview as a reminder to reset the menu when the lens is changed.

 

Larry

[guywalder]

Ruben,

ISO 2500 is only 1 button press away from ISO 160, and that is an irriversible mistake in my book!

But back to lens coding, why not include the look up table in the RAW developer, then the wrong lens code Can be reversible!

Guy

[rosuna]

But back to lens coding, why not include the look up table in the RAW developer, then the wrong lens code Can be reversible!

Guy

 

Just because we are using many different RAW Developers (Aperture, Lightroom, Capture One, RAW Developer, Lightzone...), and these aren't particular applications for Leica. They are general purpose applications supporting many camera models and they cannot include a specific interface for the Leica M8.

 

I would suggest to put the "preset" of selected lenses in the "fast screen" where you get access to the ISO, etc (selectable in the "Set" button), keeping the full list of lenses in the "slower screen" selectable by means of the "menu" buttom.

[guywalder]

Ruben,

my priority is wanting the flexibility of being able to set lenses somehow in the menu. Exactly how it is implimented is not such a big deal for me, but I will be very disapointed it doesnt happen at all.

As for the RAW developer, well yes I understand that different people use different solutions. Nevertheless I for one would be happy to have at least 1 (even if only 1) developer that includes camera specific features if they are of real value. I can however live without if I have the menu setting option

Guy

[jaapv]

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It is not a question of idiots or smart people, as you can understand if you think a bit about it.

Nor is the expression idiot-proof:rolleyes: A misunderstanding of the English language, I see

 

 

idiot-proof

id·i·ot-proof

(d-t-prf)

idiot-proof definition

adj.

Slang

Made or designed to be used or operated with very little risk of breakage or failure: "These point-and-shoot cameras are almost idiot-proof" (Donald H. Dunn).

[carstenw]

I think it would be easy to make a long menu of lens options shorter. You can select a set of preferred lenses, to be kept in memory as "preset".

 

Actually, this comment resulted in an idea which for me at least would be perfect: Dedicate say 5 or 8 entries in the table to user-defined codes. If Leica simply does not use them, and somehow allow us to customise them, we could do our own coding to trigger these settings. This would require a program for encoding settings and transferring them to the camera, so it will probably never happen. However, it would be a great way to handle old lenses and other manufacturers. We would then be on our own for how to get the lenses coded, which I can accept.

[jaapv]

Actually, this comment resulted in an idea which for me at least would be perfect: Dedicate say 5 or 8 entries in the table to user-defined codes. If Leica simply does not use them, and somehow allow us to customise them, we could do our own coding to trigger these settings. This would require a program for encoding settings and transferring them to the camera, so it will probably never happen. However, it would be a great way to handle old lenses and other manufacturers. We would then be on our own for how to get the lenses coded, which I can accept.

 

I can see it would be practical -although I would probably never use these options-, but I doubt the software aspects would be bug-free, giving rise to even more problems than we are having now.

[sean_reid]

If you subscribe to Sean Reid's reviews, he argues (convincingly) that coding doesn't even seem necessary all of the time, depending on your shooting habits. In some cases, it even seems undesirable.

 

Yes....with the caveat that this depends very much on the lens in question. In general, the 50 mm and longer lenses may not need it. Also...I would expect that the effectiveness of the corrections will continue to improve (for the intended Leica lenses) as Leica continues to refine the firmware.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[barjohn]

How about using the lens framing information to narrow down the selection. The top menu items would be based on the two possibilities normally indicated by the frame selector (I know other possibilities exist) as the top two in the menu (if a coded lens the correct lens would be at the top and selected) and the other possibilities would be listed in increasing focal length order minus the two at the top. This would make it quick and easy most of the time but still allow for the photographer to override and select what he/she thought was best.

 

I would add an f-stop menu too where the camera's best guess was at the top and selected but changeable by the user (this is primarily for EXIF but may be needed to handle vignetting/cyan shift.

[sean_reid]

The menus have a problem: if you set a lens in the menu and after that you change the lens, forgetting to change the menu option, the camera will apply an erroneous correction to the file. This would be a mess. It is more secure to apply corrections only when the camera is sure about the lens.

 

I think it would be easy to make a long menu of lens options shorter. You can select a set of preferred lenses, to be kept in memory as "preset". For instance, if you have 3 lenses, by selecting them for a preset you would have them at the top of the list, or even in a separate row at the top of the "menu" settings (you can place the full lens list at the bottom). It would be as easy and fast as changing the ISO.

 

I think Leica should offer this menu. It would allow to apply corrections to non-coded lenses, and save a lot of money in coded mounts (if you have many lenses). The potential danger is, as I said, selecting the wrong lens and correct the files in an incorrect way (vignetting, cyan borders).

 

Hi Ruben,

 

That's true but then that's really similar to choosing the wrong shutter speed, wrong aperture, etc. People would, no doubt, sometimes forget to change the menu setting but such is life. Many of us sometimes forget to change the ISO setting on our external meters. There's a limit to how much we can, or should, be protected from our own absent-mindedness <G>.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

However they figure the menu option coding out , we will have to count on one thing it has to be a simple operation, I think the last thing leica wants to do is make a simple camera complicated. my feeling is in there mind we should have IR filters on and never have to think about setting anything besides a simple on/off in the menu item. The same for coding the lenses and as users we should figure a way to code a Zeiss and Voigtlander lens,

it really is a simple sharpie trick. But leica is going to worry about Leica lenses first this option may come but like I said it is a option and it maybe something they do later. I don't think this has anything to do with shutting Zeiss or CV lenses out . they want to get there system running at full speed first and frankly we can't blame them for that. let's think about this Canon, Nikon, Olympus are not worried about other lens companies fitting there lenses on there bodies either. This is a unique situation for Leica because there lens support goes back 50 years of lenses and i am sure they want to do it but it is going to be a simple way to do it. I personally already decided if I buy a Zeiss than i will find a way to code it and not either rely on or deal with a menu option. I do not want to think about this at all, turn on and shoot is my motto.

 

All i want in the menu item is a Filter on /off switch and the coding on/off switch after that it can be a nightmare going in and setting lens settings. Even if andwhen they do this, i would still find a way to code a Zeiss or CV lens and not play this menu option game make it idiot proof for yourself

[guywalder]

Guy,

at risk of repeating myself, there is a parallel in the nikon system. Nikon did it so that manual focus lenses could be used on the F6 and D2 series. The camera needs to know which position of the mechanical aperture ring represents which aperture is set.

A menu is not utopia, but then having to scribble on my lenses with a sharpie is hardly the be all and end all either!

Guy

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I don't disagree with the sharpie technique but this all could lead to some real confusion on the users end. maybe the best option is to set profiles in the menu option for each non coded lens so if you have a Zeiss 25 you can set profile 1 for it and customize the profile and just make the Profiles options expand to say 10 instead of the 3 today. That way it is a easy one or two click option for the user. I guess the point I am saying is make this easy on yourself and keep it simple and i think leica thinks this way also. It will be interesting to see what route it takes

[luigi bertolotti]

Many good ideas but... SOFTWARE ! ... I live into this F...d word and have precise ideas on how the developers take in account customers requirements. Just to add something mine: i would like to summarize what, with the limitation above quoted, could be done without putting at risk all the software robustness as well as Leica legitimate will to "protect" their gear (or, to be more gracious to "optimize" the use of THEIR gears...).

 

Given that the corrections induced by software are mainly relevant when using Wide Angles, they could RATHER simply :

 

1) Add a menu item "WA Setting" : 5 or 6 choices simply numbered 1(or 0="no setting") to 5 or 6 : I mount my 12,5 CV, my Zeiss 15, my Hexar, my Hektor 28 of the '30s... and simply will find which one setting is better FOR ME. Stop. All of us will have nice arguments to discuss here and Leica has not to declare something like "setting n° 4 is specially suit for WA less than 18mm in high lights...".

 

2) Maintain the 6 bit coding for THEIR lenses, of course excludible as is now, normally optimizing their code during lifecycle as with any Software in the world.