k-hawinkler Posted December 23, 2012 Share #141 Posted December 23, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) The point is that the M9 and the new M-240 have so many menu choices and so many buttons to press at the most opportune or inopportune times that that alone gives an incredibly large number of combinations. So, the more testing by a more diverse population of testers under very different conditions the better in order to avoid well known M9 and unforeseen M-240 issues. Before one ever gets to optical/photographic issues Leica has to ensure that the new M works utterly reliably as an electrical/electronic device. That's where extensive testing is as important as for photographic issues, my 2 cents, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 Hi k-hawinkler, Take a look here M-240 "Seeking Light". I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
atufte Posted December 23, 2012 Share #142 Posted December 23, 2012 Looks flat like those early cmos Canon camera's, ohh how i hated those files (EOS 20D)...i guess it's still april fools day in Germany... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/255411-april-fools-day.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted December 23, 2012 Share #143 Posted December 23, 2012 The point is that the M9 and the new M-240 have so many menu choices and so many buttons to press at the most opportune or inopportune times that that alone gives an incredibly large number of combinations. So, the more testing by a more diverse population of testers under very different conditions the better in order to avoid well known M9 and unforeseen M-240 issues. Before one ever gets to optical/photographic issues Leica has to ensure that the new M works utterly reliably as an electrical/electronic device. That's where extensive testing is as important as for photographic issues, my 2 cents, If you think M9s have complex menus with a myriad of choices, try a Nikon D800. You will come away appreciating the simplicity of an M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 23, 2012 Share #144 Posted December 23, 2012 If you think M9s have complex menus with a myriad of choices, try a Nikon D800. You will come away appreciating the simplicity of an M9. The D800 prototype development platform? 16 bits, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerGeograph2010 Posted December 23, 2012 Share #145 Posted December 23, 2012 The test shots seem great! Yes, they`re "flat", but the weather has been really bad! There is must dust in the sky. Light is bad. Why should the cam take unrealistic pics? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 23, 2012 Share #146 Posted December 23, 2012 If you think M9s have complex menus with a myriad of choices, try a Nikon D800. You will come away appreciating the simplicity of an M9. Please, don't put words in my mouth! I have both an M9 and a D800E and don't feel either menu is too complex for me to memorize and handle as a user. They are both remarkable and easy to use cameras. I was merely pointing out that from a development and testing point of view Leica has to accomplish major progress beyond the M9 to join the state of the art of the industry in general with regards to the reliability of the computer aspects of a camera. That's all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Branch Posted December 23, 2012 Share #147 Posted December 23, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I’m cautious about posting anything about the launch of the M8 and the role of Beta testers since this caused so much acrimony and dispute on this forum, and elsewhere, at the time. What I do know, since I was personally involved, is that Leica UK was extremely keen to have feedback from users as soon as possible after the public launch of the M8. All my lenses had been 6-bit coded in Solms months in advance. Suffice it to say that within hours of charging up the battery on that first morning it was evident that the camera I had was not functioning as expected. Any photographer, good, bad or indifferent, could plainly see that all was not well. Very soon it became clear that I was far from alone in having a virtually useless camera. Subsequently I was told, with respect to just one of the problems, that not one Beta tester had actually commented on the IR effect prior to launch. Those testers who later said anything all claimed that they were fully aware of the problem but thought it was because their cameras were prototypes. How they imagined Leica could correct this with firmware updates I have no idea. I had the distinct impression at the time that Leica were less than impressed with the value and effectiveness of this particular instance of Beta testing using mainly, I understand, well known camera reviewers. Things are now very different and it seems that Leica has embarked on a new round of Beta testing with the M-240 using a very different population of testers. Clearly best if those testers keep silent and certainly best if they don’t let image files get anywhere near the web or journalists. We must wait for a signal; what we have currently is nothing more than noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 23, 2012 Share #148 Posted December 23, 2012 The D800 prototype development platform?16 bits, too. Ah, PDP 11, those were the days! :D And for a certain time most every department bought a VAX. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 23, 2012 Share #149 Posted December 23, 2012 Ah, PDP 11, those were the days! :D And for a certain time most every department bought a VAX. I think that Leica was an early adopter of computer assisted lens design and they used DEC hardware. Correct? Yes on the Vax. Had four plus Alphas. Those were interesting years right up to the day IT rolled them to the dumpster. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted December 23, 2012 Share #150 Posted December 23, 2012 I think the question we are waiting to see answered is whether Leica can advance itself into the world of electronics and computers as photographic equipment comparable to its skill in lenses and mechanical cameras. The skill sets are different as are the learning curves. At this point we only have a handful of snap shots to try and judge a lot of complex technical interactions. How fast can it write an image to the file? How large is the image buffer? How quickly can you zoom to check focus? How does the RAW image compare to the RAW image produced by the CCD sensor? How reliable is the firmware? How reliable is the hardware? and so on. Many unanswered questions. A big question has to be will Leica release the camera early in order to meet cash flow needs and rely on the loyalty of Leica customers to "hang in there" waiting for firmware upgrades to resolve the problem? Soon we will all know the answers but for now it is pure speculation with little solid information to draw conclusions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted December 23, 2012 Share #151 Posted December 23, 2012 An AA filter is as an AA filter does; in this sense there is no antialiasing filter in the D800E. There are filter parts that arranged in one particular way would constitute an antialiasing filter' date=' but the way they are put together in the D800E they do not.[/quote'] I was speaking in general terms, sorry! I agree with you. Technically it is not two AA filters! However if one reads the Nikon Patent and the white paper sited above they will see that it is; Very different to the Leica M8,9 and M filter packs. I prefer the Leica filter pack solution... But the Nikon filter is a very fine solution also... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
koray Posted December 23, 2012 Share #152 Posted December 23, 2012 I expect that Leica would, on balance, have preferred that these dismal efforts hadn't made it onto someone's blog. Spitting tacks, more like. As among the first - if not the first - images from the camera, they tell us nothing about it except that it has still to be a work in progress. Maybe we should give our hapless tester the benefit of the doubt that he never intended the images to be made public - can you imagine what his rejects looked like? Instead, his chum, our scribe, Raaj - who likes to show off his classical education by writing the plural of "forum" as "fora" (it isn't) - had a self-indulgent moment and couldn't resist the temptation for an exclusive. From his solitary post on this thread, I expect the Doctor has had his knuckles severely rapped by an apoplectic Leica. Which is as it should be. For this camera to emerge from development with a whimper, not a shout, is hardly what Leica would have planned. Raaj worships the Dr. I've seen more at dpreview forum. The Dr. is known to have posted photos of billboards to show how great his S2 was. K. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted December 23, 2012 Share #153 Posted December 23, 2012 Please, don't put words in my mouth! I have both an M9 and a D800E and don't feel either menu is too complex for me to memorize and handle as a user. They are both remarkable and easy to use cameras. I was merely pointing out that from a development and testing point of view Leica has to accomplish major progress beyond the M9 to join the state of the art of the industry in general with regards to the reliability of the computer aspects of a camera. That's all. KH, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth but that's the way it came across. I do think that the earlier point of having a diverse set of beta testers is related to the control set of the camera and you are right about the many permutations and combinations. They way I work, from more than 50 years of experience, is figure out which variables I want to set which way and then leave them there until I feel a compelling need to change. (For example, DNG only, lowest ISO, no bracketing). (I do the same on a D800E, or any other camera and end up changing few functions at any given time). As an example, I would not expect to use the video function on an M because I am not interested in it. I suspect many experienced photographers work the same way. That means beta testers should (and must) include people who will shoot in the broadest possible array of variables, both still and video, so they all get tested individually and in combination with other functions. Having said this, if Leica is listening, my hand is raised and I am shouting me, me, me! I will be happy to beta test! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anupmc Posted December 23, 2012 Share #154 Posted December 23, 2012 I think the question we are waiting to see answered is whether Leica can advance itself into the world of electronics and computers as photographic equipment comparable to its skill in lenses and mechanical cameras.... Emmm... I think they've already proved themselves with the S2... The only question now is whether it scales down well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted December 23, 2012 Share #155 Posted December 23, 2012 I had the distinct impression at the time that Leica were less than impressed with the value and effectiveness of this particular instance of Beta testing using mainly, I understand, well known camera reviewers. I don't know who was involved, but there is often a canyon of separation between well known camera reviewers (e.g. Rockwell) and highly skilled working photographers (e.g. Salgado). Some of the former are truly lacking in skills and useful insights. And most of the latter rarely if ever do camera reviews. Well known camera reviewers are skilled at becoming well known camera reviewers, but not necessarily at photography. Camera reviewers probably shouldn't be doing any beta testing; they should only be reviewing finished cameras that will be available for sale. I understand that a camera has many intended buyers at many different skill levels. But if a camera is to be marketed as meeting the highest standards, then surely it should be tested by people who have the highest standards. That would be consistent with the brand. Crummy photos with obvious problems may suggest that a tester does not have high standards. Of course, even expert photographers have their areas of strength and their limitations. For example, I wouldn't expect an expert at black & white photography to offer useful and nuanced insights on color photography. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted December 24, 2012 Share #156 Posted December 24, 2012 Ah, PDP 11, those were the days! :D And for a certain time most every department bought a VAX. I’ve learned assembly language programming on a PDP 11. Later we also had a VAX but my favourite computer was a PDP 10 that I used for much of my research in artificial intelligence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 24, 2012 Share #157 Posted December 24, 2012 Assembly language on the PDP 11/7? Did you use the guide written by Gerald Cichanowski? It was published in several languages. Dr. Cichanowski is a former associate. His talent in that regard is entirely beyond mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted December 24, 2012 Share #158 Posted December 24, 2012 Charles, maybe, Leica is reading this thread and they could put you on the pro-tester list. I'll put my request in for you for a M + 24lux. You could shoot it around town at the rock clubs and test the low light capability. Imagine finally being able to easily shoot fast shutter speeds with a digital M. And, you would find out real fast if it was splash proof! Rick I put your name on the list for durable outdoor shooting where you chase mountain goats for days in inclement weather conditions to test low light conditions, water proofing, long lens R stuff and whatever else you are an expert at. Hey, just live in Seattle and the weather proofing can be tested out day after day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 24, 2012 Share #159 Posted December 24, 2012 zlatkob, I agree that reviewers are better at reviewing a final product. Their technical knowledge, photographic skills, and manufacturer pleasing attitudes should dismiss them from being serious beta testers. For example, Sean Reid failed to report the magenta problem in the M8 in his early review, even though he discovered it when he was testing the camera. He gave Leica the benefit of the doubt that they would fix it. Leica users that read his glowing review bought early M8 cameras and got royally screwed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 24, 2012 Share #160 Posted December 24, 2012 RickI put your name on the list for durable outdoor shooting where you chase mountain goats for days in inclement weather conditions to test low light conditions, water proofing, long lens R stuff and whatever else you are an expert at. Hey, just live in Seattle and the weather proofing can be tested out day after day. Thanks Lou, I think I would make a great beta tester. Put me in the secondary group that mjh defines as, "give the thing to a monkey and it would take it 5 minutes to find a novel way of having the unit lock up or whatever." I'd be good at that, I think. You could test the R-module with that quill of long R-lenses you have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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