The zone system...... and filters

[Olimatt]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hello,

 

It's me again... Learning and trying to improve my film photography skills.

 

I recently acquired a non-TTL camera (bessa IIIw - MF) which I will take on vacation over christmas. In the meantime I am learning to use the zone system and practicing with BW films and colours slides (velvia)... unfortunately I do not have the reference books of Ansel Adams and I am simply relying on some internet pages.

 

How do you use filters and the zone system together?

 

Example for a BW film:

Le'ts say I would meter a dark part of an outdoor scene which I would put in the zone 3.

I would want to darken the sky with a red filter (+3 stops compensation).

 

Should I expose with a -2+3=+1 compensation ? Is this very accurate (found some strange webpages arguing it might not be accurate...)

 

Thank you for helping!

 

Olivier

[otto.f]

Depends on the color of the dark part in the scene, is it green or red for instance.

In fact, Adams advises to find your own combination of ISO-value of a film and development in the case of using a specific filter. So, that requires a whole lot of testing, because you have to find your individual N(ormal) development+ISO for your film first. After that you can only know the effect of a filter for zone III. What you are trying to do with your question is putting to many unknown variables in the equation.

[Broadside]

I would suggest Ansel Adam's "The Negative" would be helpful.

If you're quick one can be found cheap here

[pico]

Forget the Zone System. It is simply not needed today. It is unsupportable jive bullshit.

 

Surf the net for 'modified zone system' for starters.

.

[AlanG]

Forget the Zone System. It is simply not needed today. It is unsupportable jive bullshit.

 

That's funny. The Zone System will work as well today as it ever did. While you can read about it and apply some aspects of the metering principles when using a Leica... But if you can't process each negative individually to control contrast, you won't be able to fully utilize it.

[CalArts 99]

How can one use the zone system with roll film? I think it's basically impossible.

 

Like AlanG says: learning about it might help you understand metering and how meters are calibrated to a neutral gray, etc.. That's where it could help you (i.e., understanding the fundamentals.)

 

But to really make use of it you need to use film that you can expose and develop individually (i.e., sheet film.)

[madNbad]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Copies of Adams "The Negative" and other books on the Zone System can be had at bargain prices through Powell's and other online sellers. The Zone System works if you have control over all aspects of the process from exposure through developing and printing. It is true the system is designed for individual exposures but processing roll film is possible. The main lesson that applies in today's world is learning how to meter your subject properly. If you are willing to invest the time and effort into spot metering a subject there is a reward in the final print. It is a much different style of photography for most Leica users. The books themselves are a wealth of knowledge about the craft of making a great negative and just for that reason they are worth having.

[AlanG]

How can one use the zone system with roll film? I think it's basically impossible.

 

 

Exactas have a little knife in them that lets you cut up your film as you shoot.

 

You could shoot with several 35mm cameras or roll film backs - each roll targeted for specific processing. Of course this is a hassle.

 

I think the basic thing a 35mm b/w film shooter can take away from "The Negative" is understanding contrast range in the subject and how to record it the way they envision it. Once you know that, you can come up with a plan of action.

 

I shot slide film for years and I'd have to pass over subjects that were too contrasty, fill light them, or accept a loss of highlight or shadow detail and maybe too much harshness. Low contrast scenes would stay that way unless I lit them.

[allamande]

 

I think the basic thing a 35mm b/w film shooter can take away from "The Negative" is understanding contrast range in the subject and how to record it the way they envision it. Once you know that, you can come up with a plan of action.

 

 

Exactly. Adams very strongly advocates "visualization" and Zone System functions within that same framework. You "visualize" the scene in front of you in the way you want to see it, and then depending on that visualization, place "your" middle value gray at Zone V by metering that particular section of the scene, and so on.

 

Ece

[250swb]

I still use the Zone System with large format, and I think I use the basic principles of the Zone System with every roll of film.

 

The principle, if not the full implementation, can be easily applied. You take your readings and rattle off your roll of film. Then before you process it you think back, you maybe prioritise the best shot, you remember the type of light you wanted to capture, where you were taking the readings and what the intensity of the light was. And you use what you learned from the Zone System to adjust the development of your film. The times you can't do that are when the film stays in the camera so long you forget what is on it.

 

Armed with the knowledge of what happens in using the full Zone System anybody can feel very confident of making negatives that are generally better than would be expected from following set standard dev times. It is a real case of fully knowing the rules, and then you know how to break or sidestep them. And I don't mind sacrificing other shots on a roll if 'the shot' gets processed better, I never expect 36 to choose from, and one is good enough for me. So a notebook still goes with me and a label to quickly stick on a roll of film so I can link it to notes on the light. It is a ruthless method, because you need to have an opinion about your latent images before pouring in the developer.

 

But, it is a very loose Zone System, if it can be called the 'Zone' at all. It is impossible to make 36 exposures that all benefit from the chosen development method unless shooting conditions and visualisation of the light are very uniform. The Zone System is really about the individual treatment and manipulation of light via a single negative, not a safe and 'perfect' means of processing a roll of film, for that read a Kodak tech sheet.

 

Steve

[otto.f]

IMHO most reactions are not an answer to Olivier's question but an opinion about the Zone-system.

I think it's very important Olivier what you are going to do with your film: scan or process it in the darkroom to a classical print. If your purpose is scanning and printing digital the value of the Zonesystem becomes very relative because in digital postprocessing you can work with local brightness and contrast. So in that case I would just use the red filter, develop according to instructions at

http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?web

and lighten up the shadows in Photoshop.

[Broadside]

A good read for learning how the zone system can be adapted for roll film use is The Zone VI Workshop - The Fine Print in Black & white Photography by Fred Picker. It's main points are to standardise your exposure and developing by performing three tests.:-

1. Personal Film Speed Test.

2. Normal Development Time Test.

3. Exposue of Proper Proof (Print)

I remember going through all this many years ago and I've forgotten most of it but I remember it involved the use of an densitometer. I also remember that for a while I had whole rolls of negs that were great for printing. Unfortunately if you change your film, camera or developer you have to perform all the tests again.

Well worth a read.

[gyoung]

Better to get a good understanding of sensitometry. Zone system is just the application of principles, better to start at the beginning, imho, especially with rolls of film

 

Gerry

[AlanG]

IMHO most reactions are not an answer to Olivier's question but an opinion about the Zone-system.

I think it's very important Olivier what you are going to do with your film: scan or process it in the darkroom to a classical print. If your purpose is scanning and printing digital the value of the Zonesystem becomes very relative because in digital postprocessing you can work with local brightness and contrast. So in that case I would just use the red filter, develop according to instructions at

B&W Film Developing Times | The Massive Dev Chart

and lighten up the shadows in Photoshop.

 

That's a good point. A "new" zone system would take into account digital post processing which has a lot more capability for local and general tone control than was possible with traditional printing from a negative.

 

And there is nothing stopping you from shooting several aligned frames to scan and recompose for overall or localized HDR.

[pico]

Exactly. Adams very strongly advocates "visualization" and Zone System functions within that same framework. You "visualize" the scene in front of you in the way you want to see it, and then depending on that visualization, place "your" middle value gray at Zone V by metering that particular section of the scene, and so on.

 

IMHO, Adams cherry picked his images, with a few exceptions, and his 'pre-visualization' was to choose a subject, date, time, conditions that best suited his processing technique. Look at the very many pictures of Half Dome for examples. He would shoot and process over and over until he was happy.

[AlanG]

IMHO, Adams cherry picked his images, with a few exceptions, and his 'pre-visualization' was to choose a subject, date, time, conditions that best suited his processing technique. Look at the very many pictures of Half Dome for examples. He would shoot and process over and over until he was happy.

 

Isn't that what many good photographers do? What does that have to do with understanding your materials and the scene's contrast? These are two entirely different issues.

 

I plan the best time of day and conditions for my photos whenever I can... despite that I can probably capture the scenes' contrast range under various conditions. I often scout and go back several times. At dawn or dusk, even 5 minutes makes a big difference.

[pico]

Isn't that what many good photographers do? What does that have to do with understanding your materials and the scene's contrast? These are two entirely different issues. [...]

 

My observation is simply to warn persons who think that adjusting exposure and development will solve all their problems and they will get AA-like outcomes in any situation. Further, 'pre-visualization' does not mean that one can imagine what he really wants and expose/develop to make that happen. In fact, as you noted, 'pre-visualization' means that one must adjust the subject to the workflow, often not making a picture at all.

 

Of course that approach is not suitable to very many photographers, an obvious example being a film & darkroom photojournalist.

 

I agree that those who choose a chemistry/digital hybrid work flow are going to have far more control over their final image than most strictly chemical workers will. Making contrast and unsharp masks in the darkroom is quite daunting, as is consistent dodging burning, and bleaching. As another noted above, we would do well to develop a new Zone-like system for hybrid work. I am more interested in making digital negatives as per Dan Burkholder which is yet another kind of digital/analog approach.

[AlanG]

....I agree that those who choose a chemistry/digital hybrid work flow are going to have far more control over their final image than most strictly chemical workers will. Making contrast and unsharp masks in the darkroom is quite daunting, as is consistent dodging burning, and bleaching. As another noted above, we would do well to develop a new Zone-like system for hybrid work. I am more interested in making digital negatives as per Dan Burkholder which is yet another kind of digital/analog approach.

 

Technology moves on but that alone does not make a "compelling image." I am not sure if Ansel Adams got to the point of using variable contrast paper where he could burn in using a different contrast.

 

Now if we are technically skilled, we have many ways to record what we want. But understanding a scene's contrast range and how you want to depict it on your output is one of the first steps in moving from beginner to advanced... regardless of the medium.

[otto.f]

At the end of my analog period and much Zone-testing from N-2 to N+2 I came to the conclusion that the variety within one film with different ISO's and developments is smaller than the variety between films with the standard prescribed developments. So, for me pre-visualization is much more important with respect to film choice than Zone-system determined exposure and development times. I pre-visualized scenes and subjects in terms of: this is typical Delta100, that one is typical FP4, another scene for Kodak Plus-X or Tri-X

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[AlanG]

Of course that approach is not suitable to very many photographers, an obvious example being a film & darkroom photojournalist.

 

 

Gene Smith figured it out. He used supplementary lighting quite effectively and was a master in the darkroom.