On buying from a non-specialist dealer...

[pgk]

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I recently saw a used Leica M lens advertised from a dealer. I was described as being in good condition, the price whilst not cheap was reasonable, and the dealer well-known, although not one which I would say is a 'specialist' Leica dealer (and obviously I won't name the dealer as this would be unfair). Anyway, after discussing its condition on the 'phone with a very helpful staff member I ordered it and it was promptly shipped to me.

 

When it arrived it was just as clean as described with no significant marks. It had clean glass, accurate focus (I tested this on my M9) and so on. BUT, the front lens section where the push-and-rotate-to-lock hood goes onto it, moved. To me it was clearly and obviously loose as it should be solid. So the lens has gone back for this to be dealt with. Frustrating and perhaps something to be borne in mind by others when buying, because I am quite certain that a 'specialist' dealer would have picked this up and either had it sorted out or priced the lens accordingly. Perhaps the increased profile of Leica and consequent price increases in Leica equipment has pushed some dealers into carrying equipment which they are not as familiar with as they really should be?

[wattsy]

What lens was it – a 28 Summicron (with a previous version 35 Summilux hood)?

[pgk]

What lens was it – a 28 Summicron (with a previous version 35 Summilux hood)?

28mm Elmarit with correct hood - same problem though - three small screws holding the front assembly in place and a fair force needed to fit the hood. Easily enough researched here and on the web.

[Messsucherkamera]

It sounds like it may have been an oversight on the dealer's part.

 

If a dealer has scores - or even hundreds - of used lenses and bodies on hand, I can see how they would check the major points of a lens - any signs of heat, water or fungus damage, lens mount wear, front & rear element coating problems, F&R element scratches/dings, smoothness of focus, nice crisp precise clicks when changing apertures, filter mount thread damage, signs of impact damage, wear on the lens barrel, etc. and call the lens good to go without mounting the lens hood to check it for a tight fit.

 

Sometimes a small detail like does the lens hood mount securely with no play will be overlooked in the shuffle (although it should not be).

 

If the dealer is willing to make the lens right at no cost to you, then you have a reputable dealer who made an honest mistake. Yes, it causes inconvenience and delay but there are worse things in the world than a bit of inconvenience.

[earleygallery]

I was at a specialist dealer recently where we were looking at numerous cameras. Several of them had sticky shutters, which I pointed out the the salesman - they said any faults would be repaired as part of the sale.

 

We don't know how long a camera is sitting on a dealers shelves - especially with older cameras, if they aren't used regularly things 'dry up'.

 

I wouldn't blame the dealer for a simple oversight, as long as they rectify it quickly and efficiently for you.

[niarfe]

I was at a specialist dealer recently where we were looking at numerous cameras. Several of them had sticky shutters, which I pointed out the the salesman - they said any faults would be repaired as part of the sale.

 

We don't know how long a camera is sitting on a dealers shelves - especially with older cameras, if they aren't used regularly things 'dry up'.

 

I wouldn't blame the dealer for a simple oversight, as long as they rectify it quickly and efficiently for you.

 

 

Same here, the MOST important seller have a LOT of Leica gear in very ugly condiction, and say the same, "if appear some defect I´ll cover on waranty¨..... noy way man, that is not a good service in my opinion.

 

I have purchased a lot of used Leica gear in NY store ADORAMA and all was perfect and clean.

[pgk]

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I sell underwater equipment myself. New and used. It MUST be thoroughly checked out because if its not, the consequences could be catastrophic for its contents. I spend substantial time doing this and recently uneconomically serviced some gear which was not worth spending the time on because the customer who took it will probably come back for more if they find that the equipment I supply works as it should. Perhaps this is an old fashioned attitude, but if you want to sell high end gear and retain reputation and customers then I figure that the least that you can do is to go over it thoroughly and either fix faults or point them out and price accordingly. I'm waiting to see what happens to the lens with interest because the way in which they are rectified will determine what I finally think of the dealer.

[earleygallery]

No ones life is in danger if a lens hood wobbles or a shutter is sluggish.

 

If you were a dealer with 100's of s/h items in stock, do you service every item as it comes in, and hope that it sells fairly quickly, or do you wait for a buyer and help your cashflow....

 

This isn't the same as a dealer selling something with a known but undeclared fault however. That is wrong.

[pgk]

If you were a dealer with 100's of s/h items in stock, do you service every item as it comes in, and hope that it sells fairly quickly, or do you wait for a buyer and help your cashflow....

Well this is my point. With high end gear such as Leica, can you afford not to check and service it? Buying online from auction sites is one thing, but dealers charge prices which should ensure that stock is checked out, shouldn't they? In today's difficult trading conditions surviving isn't just going to be about box shifting, and certainly not so with specialist gear.

[250swb]

It is worth any photographer with a 28mm lens having the correct sized screwdriver available to tighten up those little screws. A 1.4mm is correct for the Summicron.

 

Steve

[andybarton]

Let's say that you had 20 IIIfs on your shelf as a dealer, all of which are around 60 years old. One of which might have a sticky shutter.

 

Do you send all of them off for a CLA before sale, and add £150 to the price of each, or do you sell them all, knowing that one of the twenty might come back with a fault, that you then have fixed and turned round in a week?

 

I doubt that there is a dealer in the land who has all of his stock serviced before sale. In my experience, at least one of the really big dealers don't even check some of their stock at all.

[earleygallery]

Exactly, although I'm sure the dealer isn't knowingly sending faulty stock out, but if something is found to be wrong they should of course put it right asap.

 

If a dealer is buying in a camera or lens he/she no doubt gives it the once over before agreeing a price, so we can assume that either the odd fault goes unnoticed, or faults become apparent that weren't there before.

 

There is another scenario with the lens mentioned, that screws loosened up during transit. Vibrations from vehicles/planes can easily do this.

[pgk]

It is worth any photographer with a 28mm lens having the correct sized screwdriver available to tighten up those little screws. A 1.4mm is correct for the Summicron.

 

Steve

If I could have done so I would have - and the problem would be solved. I have the appropriate screwdriver but the screws would not budge with the pressure I was prepared to apply, and a quick call to a well known Leica repairer suggested that the screws were probably held in place by a thread locking compound which might need heat or solvent to soften.....

 

I fully accept that not every piece of equipment can be completely and thoroughly checked out by a seller, and certainly not fully serviced. But the hood was attached to the lens and even a cursory inspection revealed that it was clearly and obviously loose. Surely this should have been noted and investigated as the lens had been examined sufficiently for a condition rating to be applied to it?

[250swb]

Let's say that you had 20 IIIfs on your shelf as a dealer, all of which are around 60 years old.

 

Funny you should mention IIIf's, when I was looking for mine I bought two, both from very well known Leica specialists, and both got sent back. One for a sticky shutter, and one for slow shutter speeds, and it wasn't even a IIIf which didn't help. Both dealers said, 'send it back and we will have it serviced', but both said 'fully serviced' in the initial ad. The third was a charm, but that was from a private seller on Ebay.

 

I will buy from people 'in the trade' but I am always half expecting to being very disappointed, but sometimes I'm not, and they tend to be the smaller outfits.

 

Steve

[earleygallery]

I think that the moral of this story is to buy second hand equipment in person.

 

Apart from being able to check thoroughly for faults, one can make ones own assessment of the condition of an item - the biggest 'risk' IMHO of buying s/h, whether the sellers opinion of what qualifies as a mint items is the same as mine.

[bill]

My II came from the US. When it arrived it clearly hadn't been serviced in many years; the range- and viewfinders were filthy and the gears were gummy. Shutter speeds were way off. BUT I had lowballed my bid and won (to my surprise) and I had taken into account the almost certain cost of a CLA so I was happy with the end result.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[pgk]

I think that the moral of this story is to buy second hand equipment in person.

 

Apart from being able to check thoroughly for faults, one can make ones own assessment of the condition of an item - the biggest 'risk' IMHO of buying s/h, whether the sellers opinion of what qualifies as a mint items is the same as mine.

Whilst it would be nice to be able to view everything in person it isn't always possible.

 

IMHO the idea of buying off a dealer is that they should understand and quote condition accurately and provide a warranty if something unforeseen goes wrong after the sale - not if something is wrong already. Otherwise there is no point buying off dealers is there? That said I have found some specialist dealers who are excellent and who sell equipment which is correctly and accurately described and whom I would unhesitatingly buy from again. My point was and is, that jumping on the Leica bandwagon, if you don't understand it and aren't prepared to thoroughly check equipment, isn't a particularly good idea and may prove uneconomic in the long term.

[AlanJW]

First, a "specialist" dealer is not so common, and you might get better choices by not so limiting yourself.

Second, being a specialist dealer does not mean you are automatically going to repair every second hand item that comes in. Nor does it mean you would automatically conduct yourself with integrity. That is a matter of character. My dealer sells many different brands but they stand behind everything they sell, new and used. Isn't this all just a matter of who you are dealing with, as opposed to how many logo decals are in the window?

[pgk]

In the interest of 'tidying up', here is he end of this saga.

 

I have been refunded by the dealer because the screws were 'stuck' and not quickly repairable as parts are not available apparently. I was offered a substantial discount but chose not to take it. To be fair, the dealer concerned has been very courteous and by the book and I have no complaints other than the fact that as I originally stated, they need to be more careful about examination and condition rating, and in this case they need to be more aware of the equipment specifics.

 

[i did speak to Malcolm Taylor about the lens and he could have fully repaired it, but probably not quickly, and if the screws needed drilling out then the lens would have had to have been modified with new screws and threads].

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Hallo,

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