M9 Banding and noise issues are gone!

[thighslapper]

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I agree.

 

If there was some sort of analogue to digital conversion going on then I would be happy to accept this.

 

With digital transfer and recording to media its either 100% right or it doesn't work. There is nothing in-between. In the digital world you only have on or off.

 

The software decoding and processing of the sensor data is also impossible to influence ....... the processor board either works 100% ok or not at all.

 

The only conceivable explanation is the card .... or more likely some voltage variability as a result ..... is impacting directly on the response of the sensor.

 

That's the only analogue to digital conversion bit in the whole data chain.

[pico]

Hi Pico,

 

Which software do you use for tethering?

Thanks.

 

The program that comes standard with Mac:

 

Image Capture

Version 6.2 (451)

 

It simply clicks the shutter. Nothing special.

[pico]

With digital transfer and recording to media its either 100% right or it doesn't work. There is nothing in-between. In the digital world you only have on or off.

 

Not quite true. Noncompliant or ignorant programming of the camera SD communications software can write bad data. Corruption can also be caused by a failure in the SD card interface.

 

The only conceivable explanation is the card .... or more likely some voltage variability as a result ..... is impacting directly on the response of the sensor.

 

SD interface checks voltage and allows it to be changed to comply with certain requisites, however that part of the interface can fail.

[k-hawinkler]

I agree.

 

If there was some sort of analogue to digital conversion going on then I would be happy to accept this.

 

With digital transfer and recording to media its either 100% right or it doesn't work. There is nothing in-between. In the digital world you only have on or off.

 

The software decoding and processing of the sensor data is also impossible to influence ....... the processor board either works 100% ok or not at all.

 

The only conceivable explanation is the card .... or more likely some voltage variability as a result ..... is impacting directly on the response of the sensor.

 

That's the only analogue to digital conversion bit in the whole data chain.

 

 

Typically that is true.

 

However, there are exceptions in rare cases in which a chip's correct performance can depend on which circuitry inside a chip was executed just prior to the current one, although the chip was used within spec., temperature etc.

 

I am not saying that is the case here, just making a general point.

 

What's interesting, in the case being discussed here, is that using S- or C-mode or high ISO can have an effect. To me that indeed would point to a power management issue, exacerbated by non-standard memory card implementation and how the camera deals with that.

[Paul J]

What firmware version are you using in the M9 and how many copies of these cards have you tried/used in your M9?

 

I still haven't updated to the latest firmware version, and have only used the Transcend 16GB Class 10 cards with generally good results after about 50,000+ images. But, I still get banding. And I still think it may be somewhat related to how the camera is used (i.e. reviewing images during buffer write and when the buffer is full)... And it seems some of my cards are more banding prone than others, therefore, I mark cards that have had a higher than expected number of images with banding to exclude from the regular rotation.

 

One good thing about these Transcend cards: the prices recently came down by 50%, at least in my area, with the 16GB available for $12 and the 32GB for $25.

 

At these prices, I will pick up a couple of the 32GB cards to try for myself.

 

Edit: OK, I noticed your reply in the other thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-sd-card-issues/256427-32gb-transcend-class-10-a.html#post2191588 that you're still on the previous FW version.

 

Sorry I missed this. As it's worked for me I think it's worth a try. I've certainly noticed varying results over different cards. 4gb Sandisk was better than the 8GB one. Who knows if I had genuine ones. Let us know how you get on if you try it.

[Paul J]

Interestingly, and as a side note that may or may not be related....I've tried out Eye-Fi cards and had them working no problem. After a LOT of research I uncovered that the reason that Eye-Fi did not support Leica was the fact that the lack of electronic shielding greatly interfered with the wi-fi connection resulting in noise in the images. I wish I had of kept the link as a reference right now but that is pretty much all that was said from the CEO of Eye-Fi if I remember correctly.

 

Now please understand I don't for one minute know anything about electronic engineering so this might sound like a pile of rubbish. But...If this is true, then perhaps some cards are better equipped for this than others? Also is shielding something that could be different from camera to camera? Sort of a manufacturing variable? Causing some cameras to have more of a case than others? Or perhaps the random nature is in the cards manufacturing? Is it something that really could be affecting data?

[tobey bilek]

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I believe there are but a few manufactures of card innards, Lexar and Sandisc, or they buy up all the top spec ones.

 

Everyone else gets the picked over stock and they put their label on them. Most people will not notice if they get banding or the speeds are off. You get what you pay for.

 

Looking at images when the card is being written is user error.

 

I buy Lexar as they are one of the top two and I have never heard of a counterfeit Lexar. If you can afford Leica, you can afford a few dollars for a quality card. I am not saying you need to buy a 1000x class 10 256 GB, but a decent one for the M. I am using 16 GB Lexar 133X. at $20 on sale. Can`t buy them any more so I will have to buy some class 10 at 2 for $42 B&H. So how much money can you save with cheapos?

 

Electronic components work the same way, military suppliers and other high end manufactures buy all the ones that test within 5%. Others get the lesser quality leftovers.

[Paul J]

I think it goes beyond the cost of the card. The most expensive card I bought was the Panasonic Gold and while better, it was still affected.

[k-hawinkler]

Paul,

 

Yes there are technical differences in different kinds of memory cards even coming from the same manufacturer. That's why I find it very interesting that you mentioned that Panasonic cards also gave you some problems. Could you please be more specific?

 

Thanks.

[Paul J]

Paul,

 

Yes there are technical differences in different kinds of memory cards even coming from the same manufacturer. That's why I find it very interesting that you mentioned that Panasonic cards also gave you some problems. Could you please be more specific?

 

Thanks.

 

I have only tried one. Panasonic Gold 16GB. I bought in online direct from Panasonic. I believe It was certainly better but still the streaky banding like in the photos I posted in this thread turned up. I had high hopes for it after everything I had read about it. Is there anything more I can tell you?

[k-hawinkler]

I have only tried one. Panasonic Gold 16GB. I bought in online direct from Panasonic. I believe It was certainly better but still the streaky banding like in the photos I posted in this thread turned up. I had high hopes for it after everything I had read about it. Is there anything more I can tell you?

 

 

Paul,

 

Thanks. Did that happen in S-, C-mode, while chimping?

Environmental variables!

 

Have you had Leica check out that particular camera?

[Paul J]

I rarely, almost never turn the camera to C mode but will often shoot as if in C mode if I the need is there. My LCD is turned off, I'm not really that into chimping (damn safari keeps wanting me to write chomping). Particularly when shooting commercially I will occaisionally hit the buffer and keep shooting. I've noted the noise as more pronounced in these cases. When shooting a series of 4 or 5 shots the last ones will be progressively more effected.

 

I was very close to sending the camera off to Leica. I posted here about it a while back. I read in the next couple days that someone had tried this particular card and thought it was worth a shot.

 

Now it's working so well I'm not going to mess with it and leave it be.

[k-hawinkler]

Of course, now that it works I would keep using it as well.

 

From the usage pattern you describe it looks like the observed problem seems more prevalent the more processing load, and with it more power needs, is put on the M9.

 

In the past, when I did that to my M9 including chimping, it would stop very intermittently functioning completely. I don't think my M9 works well under a high processing load. If I avoid that it works fine except when it's freezing. The Panasonic Gold card made a huge difference for me. I probably never examined the resulting images as closely as you do though.

 

Thanks.

[pico]

Interestingly, and as a side note that may or may not be related....I've tried out Eye-Fi cards and had them working no problem.

 

The last Eye-Fi warning of Leica M9 / M9 Titanium / M9-P use mentioned that there was a physical dimension problem with the Leica card slot so that damage to the Leica 'could' occur when inserting then removing the Eye-Fi card. Perhaps Eye-Fi fixed that, but I doubt it.

 

Here is what they say about the Leica M9 / M9 Titanium / M9-P

[thighslapper]

Not remotely convinced it is a DIRECT card issue....

 

The fact that it is BANDING implies a repeatable error that follows a pattern.

 

How can that happen in the data transfer to a card ????

 

Sensor output goes into a buffer and is then read in a fixed manner.

 

Banding to me implies something interfering somewhere higher up the chain.....

 

Interference in the voltage output of the sensor .... which is outputted in a sequential and patterned manner is the only logical explanation...

[Erik Gunst Lund]

.......the reason that Eye-Fi did not support Leica was the fact that the lack of electronic shielding greatly interfered with the wi-fi connection resulting in noise in the images.....

 

Nothing to do with banding in images!

You got that mixed up; it was the metal body of the camera and bottom plate that made it difficult for the WIFI signal to get transmitted out, for the same reason, the new M now has a plastic part in the bottom plate over the card.

 

...Now please understand I don't for one minute know anything about electronic engineering so this might sound like a pile of rubbish. But....

 

OK... My engineer point of view say:

 

Banding in a pattern like shown in the above images can't be generated in transfer to the card it would be random, so the file would be scrambled all together or unreadable for Phototshop or whatever, which sometimes happen, very rarely though...

 

To me it looks like its happening in the camera processing.

 

I'm waiting for a set of images; any SD card image showing banding and a tethered image, identical set up and subject without banding. Thanks!

[Paul J]

Nothing to do with banding in images!

You got that mixed up; it was the metal body of the camera and bottom plate that made it difficult for the WIFI signal to get transmitted out, for the same reason, the new M now has a plastic part in the bottom plate over the card.

 

 

 

OK... My engineer point of view say:

 

Banding in a pattern like shown in the above images can't be generated in transfer to the card it would be random, so the file would be scrambled all together or unreadable for Phototshop or whatever, which sometimes happen, very rarely though...

 

To me it looks like its happening in the camera processing.

 

I'm waiting for a set of images; any SD card image showing banding and a tethered image, identical set up and subject without banding. Thanks!

 

I can only tell you what I read with my own eyes. The CEO of Eye-Fi had said the lack of shielding in the M9 created signal noise. I will try and find the link.

 

As for issues with cards - who knows. I can only tell you what I know and that is the problems have disappeared with the new card. To be honest I don't even need to understand. It's like learning how a sausage is made, I'm just happy to eat them. I'm just happy the images are clean now.

[Paul J]

Phew. Found it.

 

Eye-Fi and M9 comment from founder of Eye-Fi

 

Here is the excerpt:

 

Ziv Gillat (Eye-Fi)

Posted January 24, 2011 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

Guys,

 

I’m one of the Eye-Fi co-founders.

 

I can’t speak first hand about the damage to the SD slot, but if our QA guys wrote that, I’ll leave that statement alone. I CAN speak to seeing image sensor noise in images that were sent to me, from a colleague. Basically, the images had some banding and noise in the RAW image data, which meant that the M9 isn’t grounded properly to shield the SD slot’s noise from the rest of the camera. This is especially unfortunate because the M9 costs $9000 and cameras that cost $70 do a better job in shielding and don’t have any noise whatsoever. There are so many cameras that are compatible perfectly, and many of them are even Eye-Fi Connected, from the top 8 camera OEM’s. Some Casio cameras start at $70, hence the comment on the price differential.

 

So between the noise in the image, and the poor Wi-Fi range that you would get due to the huge metal plate at the bottom of the camera — I would say that your M9 + Eye-Fi experience will be poor. We don’t want to recommend the card when we know that the experience won’t be amazing.

 

Thx –

 

Ziv.

[Erik Gunst Lund]

That is a quote from a comment on Leica rumors...

 

We will see, when someone with an M9 do the test.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Paul J]

It's the most interesting piece of info I've found so far and it goes reasonably well with my findings too. To which admittedly are based on ZERO electronic engineering knowledge.

 

Personally I have no more need to do any tests. The problem existed in most shots until I used my current card and now the problem has gone entirely. My results based on more than 2 months and somewhere around 6000 photos using this one card which is conclusive enough for me until the problem arises again.

 

May I ask what your camera electronics engineering position is?