Jump to content

M9 Banding and noise issues are gone!


Paul J

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I've posted this in the cards section too but thought it might go overlooked and that someone might benefit from the findings. I know others have reported the issue too so I hope this will help you also.

 

Some of you may remember I had ongoing issues with heavy banding in shadows even at ISO 160 on my M9. I was about to send the camera back to Solms when I read, somewhere on this forum, that a Transcend 32GB Class 10 card solved someones issues.

 

I have been using the card for a couple months now and am really happy to report that all of my banding and noise issues have evaporated. If you are having problems I really suggest you try the card, or try swapping other cards until you find something that gives you clean results. I tried the Gold Panasonics at great expense and still my problems persisted, I was so close to sending the camera in as I thought it was defective. I also worried the camera design was floored with lack of shielding or something similar but alas it was as simple as changing cards.

 

My files are now super clean. I have much less noise, nearly none at ISO 160 now and absolutely no banding at all. I am over the moon to find this has resolved my issue which was a little scary to think was going to hang around! Also a bonus that these particular cards are reasonably priced too.

 

Anyway, I hope this may help some others too.

  • Like 11
Link to post
Share on other sites

How would this make sense?

 

Sometime when you have a few minutes tether your camera to the computer and capture a shot in broad daylight then capture the same shot un-tethered to the sd card and load the picture.

 

Ye shall understand more about the "weakest link" in the chain.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

What firmware version are you using in the M9 and how many copies of these cards have you tried/used in your M9?

 

I still haven't updated to the latest firmware version, and have only used the Transcend 16GB Class 10 cards with generally good results after about 50,000+ images. But, I still get banding. And I still think it may be somewhat related to how the camera is used (i.e. reviewing images during buffer write and when the buffer is full)... And it seems some of my cards are more banding prone than others, therefore, I mark cards that have had a higher than expected number of images with banding to exclude from the regular rotation.

 

One good thing about these Transcend cards: the prices recently came down by 50%, at least in my area, with the 16GB available for $12 and the 32GB for $25.

 

At these prices, I will pick up a couple of the 32GB cards to try for myself.

 

Edit: OK, I noticed your reply in the other thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-sd-card-issues/256427-32gb-transcend-class-10-a.html#post2191588 that you're still on the previous FW version.

Edited by rscheffler
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometime when you have a few minutes tether your camera to the computer and capture a shot in broad daylight then capture the same shot un-tethered to the sd card and load the picture.

 

Ye shall understand more about the "weakest link" in the chain.

 

But, what does this have to do with why different cards would show more banding? If, you know the answer you don't have to make it a conundrum.

Link to post
Share on other sites

But, what does this have to do with why different cards would show more banding? If, you know the answer you don't have to make it a conundrum.

 

A lot of different cards produce different results. The quality of some of the cards differs even in the same type and size cards.

 

The more the cards get used, removed and installed, formatted etcetera the weaker they get.

 

Some are more fragile than others and also susceptible to magnetic and static charges.

 

I had a bad time with some a while back and after talking to a computer hardware expert did a little experimenting based on his recommendations. That's where I got the idea to tether a camera directly to the computer and import the images as pure as I could to see if there was a difference and there were visible differences in images over a range of 5-6 cards. The quality of the images was different in several areas of the images but not throughout the entire image as a rule.

 

In the end I settled on a couple of the more expensive cards and the photos became more uniform. I suspect the quality control and the internal material of each different range of the media is what causes that.

 

Like I said......if you have time try it for yourself. You should be able to see the difference for yourself with the naked eye and without magnifying or cropping the images. Mine were noticeable in images with a definite high contrast. In the end I settled on what worked for me the best with regards to brand of cards and speeds and sizes. I don't go over 16 mb cards any more and don't choose the highest write speeds.

 

A conundrum or being cryptic was not my intention.........

Edited by jdlaing
  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

But, what does this have to do with why different cards would show more banding? If, you know the answer you don't have to make it a conundrum.

 

 

PS: After using quite a few different digital cameras and now Leica for a while I have learned to trust Leica equipment as far as the recording and handling of the images as opposed to the media that they are recorded on. Leica cameras are pretty consistent.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Really interesting. I would never have thought that the writing of digital information to the card would give anything other than just exact copies of the output to the card. Isn't there error correction in the write architecture from the Leica buffer to the card? It would seem to be easy to confirm by writing to two different cards and checking the file against each other.

 

I'll have to try it when I have time.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

PS: After using quite a few different digital cameras and now Leica for a while I have learned to trust Leica equipment as far as the recording and handling of the images as opposed to the media that they are recorded on. Leica cameras are pretty consistent.

 

 

Interesting indeed!

Have you tried the supposedly bad cards on other cameras similarly?

Did you find there any differences between writing to card or tethered to computer?

Thanks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is interesting.

 

I'm of limited knowledge enough to find it hard to believe that the body writes "different" raw data depending on card type. Or that the card somehow takes that same output and transposes it into something different?

 

This not to say I don't believe it could be true, but that indon't understand "how" it coul be true? Can someone cover the process in laymans terms?

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is interesting.

 

I'm of limited knowledge enough to find it hard to believe that the body writes "different" raw data depending on card type. Or that the card somehow takes that same output and transposes it into something different?

 

This not to say I don't believe it could be true, but that indon't understand "how" it coul be true? Can someone cover the process in laymans terms?

 

I don't think the body writes different to each different card. I think the cards record differently based on the quality of the card.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting indeed!

Have you tried the supposedly bad cards on other cameras similarly?

Did you find there any differences between writing to card or tethered to computer?

Thanks.

 

Yes. I tried them on different cameras. Mirrorless and DSLr.

It only became visible to me with cameras above 16 megapixel image sensors.

On the two lesser sensors you could see it only when magnifying or cropping.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Really interesting. I would never have thought that the writing of digital information to the card would give anything other than just exact copies of the output to the card. Isn't there error correction in the write architecture from the Leica buffer to the card? It would seem to be easy to confirm by writing to two different cards and checking the file against each other.

 

I'll have to try it when I have time.

 

Rick.....

 

Here's how the conversation went over cocktails with my computer geek friend.

 

"Gee I'm about fed up with computer driven cameras in general. I keep getting different results when I do the same thing over and over."

 

After some questions the computer geek said "Send me some of the images with exif intact"

 

The next conversation we had a while later he asked me what computer software I was using to render or work with the images and I told him either Lightroom or Aperture. He then asked me what cards I was using in the camera and whether I was using the cable or a card reader.

I told him I use the built in card reader in the MacBook Pro.

 

That's when he suggest I set up a little test between the different cards and the computer directly to load the images. After that little test and showing him the results he told me to standardize what cards I used based on what output I thought looked best.

 

So far so good. No more going to the corner sell me everything Pharmacy or WalMart for cards at $9.99

 

The one thing that he did explain that I did not understand is that tiny bits in a dat stream, when recorded, can be recorded in error based upon write speed and record speed or faulty media. That doesn't harm the bulk of data or it's purpose. In general the vast majority is not harmed but he was not sure about photographs, color and highlights or dynamic range or the computer's interpretation and handling of it. At that point he lost me as I thought it was all ones and zeros and media was media.

 

I'm taking his word for it until I find out different......

Edited by jdlaing
Link to post
Share on other sites

Please post two consecutive and otherwise identical images, light tripod etc. and show us, Thanks.

 

I'll go back and dig for a couple and do that when I find them.

As far as the cards and doing it again I gave the bummers away and trashed a couple.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I had banding in dark areas of almost every shot. Even at ISO 160. The images were properly exposed and the noise and banding was visible without inceasing "shadow slider" in lightroom etc. Also occaisionally blotchy colour noise. It was mainly visibly at 50% or more viewing but you could see the banding in small jpgs.

 

As said, It's completely gone now and I have shot a couple thousand photos in the last month and not seen it in once.

 

I have 2 cards which showed it worse than others. I tried the Panasonic which was notably better but it still showed up. The new card has worked and I suggest if people are having the same issue it is worth trying a few different cards.

 

This is what it looked like:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Link to post
Share on other sites

If this is true: crazy.

 

I thought there was some kind of error correction going on. Of course there are also signal errors in USB or network cables etc. - but there is error correction built in which limits the transfer speed for example.

 

A camera which writes wrong data to SD cards, or SD cards writing wrong data to the memory despite error correction are damaged in my point of view. If a new card behaves like that, it should be sent back to the dealer and replaced.

 

Maybe Leica does not check if the data written to the SD card, is the same data as in the buffer of the camera because of speed considerations (fps) etc.

 

Normally there is some kind of CRC / checksum test going on... and if it fails the camera for example should display an error message that the SD card is broken.

Edited by theboch
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...