Future upgradeability of new Leica M's EVF

[marknorton]

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I think it will do no better than mirror the resolution of the back panel LCD which is considerably less than the sensor.

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[Rolo]

For me it is a deal-breaker, as the only reason to get the M would be the additional possibilities using long R lenses.

 

It's a deal breaker now Jaap ?

 

We have it on record several times that you will NEVER buy an M-CMOS. I did mention this to you at the time.

 

You're a Safari photographer, Jaap. Deep in the bush, and all that, camouflage, wild animals. Apprentice to Nick Brandt.

 

It's a 400mm lens on an M you need, Jaap. The only monochrome you need is dusty browns. Am I right ? :-)

[mjh]

So, how does the video function work then?

Not by reading out the full 24 MP and scaling down to the video resolution (which would yield the best results if it was possible). I am not aware of any camera doing a full read-out of all the sensor pixels for video.

[Manolo Laguillo]

I am not a technician at all, just a plain photographer, but I do understand more or less the technical problem in the EVF (refreshing rate, etc). Thank you for your explanations!

 

Perhaps my question is a stupid one. Please forgive me if that's the case.

 

Here it is: Why did Leica not use the Sony technology?

 

I do own the Nex 5N with the Sony EVF. A good quality it has (2.350.000 pixels). I don't have the specs at hand now, and therefore can´t give the refreshing rate. Is it 30/sec or 60/sec?

 

The Olympus/Leica has 1.000.000 less, and 30/sec.

[jaapv]

Please point me to one post where I said that. And I don't need a 400. I have a 400. On my Monochrome. Taking it into Mozambique and Malawi coming Monday. I will post the results in six weeks or so.

 

So you are wrong. On all counts.

It's a deal breaker now Jaap ?

 

We have it on record several times that you will NEVER buy an M-CMOS. I did mention this to you at the time.

 

You're a Safari photographer, Jaap. Deep in the bush, and all that, camouflage, wild animals. Apprentice to Nick Brandt.

 

It's a 400mm lens on an M you need, Jaap. The only monochrome you need is dusty browns. Am I right ? :-)

[darylgo]

The M EVF2 is the same Leica catalog number for the X2. On the X2 according to Reid the refresh is 60/sec but on the M it is 30/sec, not sure why the difference, can anyone shed light on the subject?

 

According to Reid the Sony electronic finders has more resolution but he felt the overall image quality of the Leica finder is superior, citing the Sony as too contrasty and lacking in detail primarily in the shadows.

 

There is discussion of Leica updating the finder as technology advances. I have ordered the Leica finder and will pay extra as it's footprint looks more ideal for the M. The Olympus finder appears wider and may block access to the shutter speed dial. Paying over $500 is not easy and now that my order is in, I am hoping Leica doesn't change. I am almost assured of this because Leica doesn't readily upgrade accessories, cameras or anything for that matter. Leica changes slowly, a nice benefit mainly but frustrating at times.

[menos I M6]

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I am not as excited, as many about the "easier use" of longer lenses with the EVF on the new M.

 

The combination of long lens (small angle of view) and significant lag in even the best EVF's today, combined with a lack of image stabilization of any kind leads to a very jittery experience with constant over corrections, when shooting hand held.

 

On a tripod or subjects, that move slowly or not at all this poses no big issue, on moving subjects though, it adds a certain difficulty, making the use of an EVF a crutch.

 

But my long lenses on my DSLR are easy to shoot, even without image stabilization, you say?

Yes, these DSLRs have the great advantage of completely canceling the lag between your subject moving to the optical image being displayed in your viewfinder - hence no over corrections or jitter.

 

Now would Leica had implemented some intelligent image stabilization into the system, this all would be very exciting, but as it is now - old tech EVF + lack of stabilization or improved (reduced) lag, this EVF is merely a gimmick solution for verifying mechanical RF/lens collimation or shooting from awkward angles with an eye level finder.

 

This is not enough for me, to remotely make the M attractive to me.

 

I was really hoping, Leica would introduce a smashing next level technology EVF instead of reusing an existing product.

The universal mount makes for a little hope though, that newer iterations of the finder might show an upgrade path.

[andybarton]

You're not at Photokina I thought you had hands-on with the new gear. Do we know for certain that the Olympus viewfinder will attach and work on the Mnothing? I was under impression it was just rebadged like the Panny EVF for DLux, but looking at them the Leica appears to have a completely different housing (reminiscent/evocative of the Visoflex). Having to pay Leica's doubled price would certainly be worse than just accepting the mediocre quality of that EVF.

 

The Olympus EVF works on the X2 and it will work on the M

[stunsworth]

So, how does the video function work then?

 

1080p is nowhere near 24 Mp.

[Rolo]

Please point me to one post where I said that. And I don't need a 400. I have a 400. On my Monochrome. Taking it into Mozambique and Malawi coming Monday. I will post the results in six weeks or so.

 

So you are wrong. On all counts.

 

Still searching through 27,000 posts, you do repeat yourself a lot, Jaap. Here's one for starters.

 

At least we're agreed on the 400mm. Tick to me.

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Re: Is an M9.2 unlikely?

I'll be keeping my M9-P in any event, with a CMOS based sensor I would be watching from a distance before committing under all circumstances.

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26/07/12, 08:41 * #14 (permalink)

jaapv

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Re: Is an M9.2 unlikely?

+1

 

But just wait for the threads declaring the M10 the latest and the greatest with unheard-of image quality, supported by crappy pet shots..

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[andybarton]

1080p is nowhere near 24 Mp.

 

Understood. Thanks

 

I would have thought that 1080p would be more than sufficient to drive an EVF

[250swb]

The Olympus EVF works on the X2 and it will work on the M

 

And its also the same EVF as the Panasonic version, only the Panasonic is usually cheaper.

 

As I understand it the EVF is made for Panasonic and Olympus and now Leica, by Epson. As such with three manufacturers all combining on a common standard its unlikely the connector to camera is open to a sudden change as some people have worried about. As soon as the next version is released by Panasonic or Olympus it should still work on a Leica.

 

Steve

[-ph-]

Understood. Thanks

 

I would have thought that 1080p would be more than sufficient to drive an EVF

 

It certainly is - I think the event the point can be made that it is basically the resolution of human vision (unless you start to scan the scene). But it is also vastly more than the resolution of current EVFs. With EVFs and the displays on the cameras, like with sensors, every r,g, b subpixel is counted. That means 1080p would roughly be equivalent to 6 megapixels. The Olympus VF2 has 1.4 megapixels counted that way, giving a rgb resolution of 800x600. It is using an Epson chip for the display. At this Photokina, Epson introduced a higher resolution version of their chip, giving a 1024x768 pixel rgb image (or 2.4 megapixels as they are counted). One can hope, that this chip quickly turns up in the Olympus/Leica VFs and that that VF would be compatible with the M.

Another issue is the refresh rate. The Olympus OMD which probably shares the display chip with the VF2, drives it with up to 120 frames per second. That completely removes any jumpiness of the image. When looking through the VF of the Leica M, I quite noticed some jumpiness of the VF image. That may have 2 reasons:

a) the sensor of the Leica doesn't allow a higher speed readout, after all the video modes are also limited to <= 30 FPS, or

simply the firmware isn't finished yet. Fine-tuning the speed of operations is typically the last step in any programming project so being at least 4 months from release, one could expect quite some improvements there, as long as the hardware allows it.

 

Peter

[-ph-]

And its also the same EVF as the Panasonic version, only the Panasonic is usually cheaper.

 

As I understand it the EVF is made for Panasonic and Olympus and now Leica, by Epson. As such with three manufacturers all combining on a common standard its unlikely the connector to camera is open to a sudden change as some people have worried about. As soon as the next version is released by Panasonic or Olympus it should still work on a Leica.

 

Steve

The external EVF by Panasonic is certainly something different (lower resolution and is not exchangeable with the Olympus one). Probably, Panasonic and Olympus are using the same Epson display chip for their internal EVFs and the VF2, but the viewfinders themselves are most likely done by Panasonic and Olympus, they are quite different in the details.

Considering that the GH3 now claims a 2 megapixel VF, it would guess they already use the freshly presented Epson chip and Olympus VF might get an upgrade in spring.

 

Peter

[jaapv]

Yes, but I don't see myself saying it would be a reason to dismiss the camera here, just a an idea to compare the two. I really think you have me confused with someone else.

Still searching through 27,000 posts, you do repeat yourself a lot, Jaap. Here's one for starters.

 

At least we're agreed on the 400mm. Tick to me.

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Re: Is an M9.2 unlikely?

I'll be keeping my M9-P in any event, with a CMOS based sensor I would be watching from a distance before committing under all circumstances.

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26/07/12, 08:41 * #14 (permalink)

jaapv

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Re: Is an M9.2 unlikely?

+1

 

But just wait for the threads declaring the M10 the latest and the greatest with unheard-of image quality, supported by crappy pet shots..

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[stevelap]

...............As soon as the next version is released by Panasonic or Olympus it should still work on a Leica. Steve

 

I've read that an improved Olympus EVF is indeed expected by the end of the year. On the 4/3 Rumor site this quote is attributed to Toshiyuki Terada, Olympus Product Planning

 

“we will have new EVFs that should satisfy even the most critical photographers".

[photomeme]

Do we know anything about if Leica has mantained the EVF-socket specifications and related electronics open to cope with better EVFs in the future?

 

I am underwhelmed by the need, in 2012 (or I should say 2013), to attach an EVF to get incremental features.

 

My preference is that the next Leica M upgrade put focus peaking in the optical viewfinder as a HUD, and drop nonsense like Live View and Video.

 

If Leica stays on the path that spawned the 'M', by 2016 you'll get a Live View overlay in your Google Glasses.

[mjh]

My preference is that the next Leica M upgrade put focus peaking in the optical viewfinder as a HUD, and drop nonsense like Live View and Video.

With focus peaking being an extension of live view, how could you get one without the other? (And with live view you get video for free, more or less.)

 

And you don’t strictly need the EVF for any of this; the display would show the same live view image.

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Hallo,

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[Jeff S]

For me it is a deal-breaker, as the only reason to get the M would be the additional possibilities using long R lenses.

 

Well, let's not forget this post.

 

Let me excerpt the final comments from your post...

 

 

"Which brings me to my decision: Forget about the M10. It will add next to nothing to my photography for all its expected high-res, high-ISO, Live-view, EVFViso capabilities. Forget about Sony, Olympus, Fuji, there is always a a kludge, compromise or drawback.

 

I will keep the M9, get the MM, for the coming time explore the neglected (by me) universe of B&W travel and wildlife photography using my trusty Visoflex and get the Leica EVIL in due course without time pressure.

Two, later maybe three cameras, a number of favorite lenses, that will be all I need to fill at least a decade. Maybe marketing ain't that stupid after all. Das Wesentliche."

[bold added]

 

 

 

In the same thread, you admitted to GAS, and said that the M10 would have to "bring some very unexpected surprises" for you to have any interest. And clearly you had info from the introduction celebration that made any such surprises more than unlikely.

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

Where is the CMos in that post? That was the point I was discussing with Rolo.

We have it on record several times that you will NEVER buy an M-CMOS

Thanks for showing I was consistent. I never denied I said I was not planning to upgrade my M9. In fact it won me an ice-cream. But it had nothing to do with the sensor. In fact I am a bit nonplussed by this whole kafuffle. I was expressing disappointment with the EVF chosen, not with the sensor.