carstenw Posted March 14, 2007 Share #41 Posted March 14, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Rob, we surely must be able to shoot sunsets! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 14, 2007 Posted March 14, 2007 Hi carstenw, Take a look here The end of the world as we know it?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tashley Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share #42 Posted March 14, 2007 Rob, we surely must be able to shoot sunsets! I agree. Particularly when they are behind clouds! Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share #43 Posted March 14, 2007 I don't see a problem with the camera. I really think if you insist on images of strong sun to the point of massive overexposure you are simply looking for trouble. The same goes for looking into any bright light source, reflector lights, searchlights etc. This is most probably sensor blooming that can happen anywhere in the frame and is caused by excess electrons due to overexposure that spill into adjacent sites. The extreme contrast of the edge causes the high voltage bright side of one pixel, to affect the low voltage of the other pixels on the darker side, with the result that the electrons spill over. I agree 100% that that is what is happening. But I do not concur with the idea that it should be considered acceptable. I have another M8 (and a host of other digicams) that do not exhibit this behaviour. To explain is not to excuse, and a sunset is, let's face it, a much-photographed moment, regardless of its aesthetic value. As such it should be do-able without pixel overspill. There comes a moment in one's relationship with a bit of gear where one has to step back and be rational. I love the M8 (my first one) more than any camera ever. It is the business. But the second one is knackered, no ifs or buts, and to defend aberrant behaviour by means of technical explanation is to miss the point. Really. This forum is about reasoned exploration of an exciting beast. Let's keep it reasonable. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 15, 2007 Share #44 Posted March 15, 2007 Why is it that some M8's do, and others don't?? Btw: Rob, we surely must be able to shoot sunsets! I'm not sure if all forum members agree with this sentiment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share #45 Posted March 15, 2007 Why is it that some M8's do, and others don't?? Good question - and unlike my pitiful examples, good shot! So I have one M8 that does this and one M8 that doesn't (the old ones are the best ones as the elderly comedians always say). I took a bunch of interior shots with the new one tonight. Every bright light source, in a place I have shot several times with the first M8 with no problem at all, have this pixel stuff happening. Tomorrow I'll try with a different card and see if there's a difference. Luckily in the UK if you pay on a card you have the right to return the goods rather than send them on the mystical trip to Solms. Which I am glad for! I'm not angry with Leica or anything, they've produced a great camera. Life's (usually!) too short for all that: but I would like to understand this particular issue! Thanks for posting Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted March 15, 2007 Share #46 Posted March 15, 2007 ha jaap the difference with your shot is its correctly exposed, so as not to overexpose and it is also somewhat softened by cloud Tim's is way blown out, and has a much stronger contrast and it is BTW, the most contrast one could ever see dont forget, this camera doesnt have an AA filter so dumb down or soften the effects there are gains and there are losses as a result moire is another deficiency of this configuration schimmel be nice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 15, 2007 Share #47 Posted March 15, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Tim, If one camera does this, and the other doesn't, then the one that does needs to go back right away. I feel badly for you, but I'm sure your diligence will be rewarded in the end! @ Rob, I'm not so sure about the exposure level--honestly--I've never seen anything like that before. The M8 shots I've got directly into noonday sun (extreme backlight) don't exhibit anything like the gnarly artifacts Tim has. Just for kicks, here's a quick, terribly over-exposed, artifact-free series of shots (100% crop from small-ish JPEG, but the DNGs are clean too). ISO 1250; shutter 1/45 s--so you know shooting point blank into a halogen bulb is going to be terribly overexposed--and they are! (BUT can I just say how much I love the way the 50 lux APSH treats this harsh harsh light!?!) f1.4 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! f 4 f 5.6 f 16 (just for giggles!) Tim--now I've posted the most ridiculously shot and composed shots of all time here! But no artifacts. In fact, these are remarkably artifact-free IMO. And one of the things I love about the M8 (and the DMR) is the ability to shoot right into the light and remain digital-artifact free. It's actually what finally tipped me into first buying Leica lenses and then the DMR. Edge conditions are what these systems excel at. BTW--Lens artifacts, such as they are--are A-OK with me under those circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! f 4 f 5.6 f 16 (just for giggles!) Tim--now I've posted the most ridiculously shot and composed shots of all time here! But no artifacts. In fact, these are remarkably artifact-free IMO. And one of the things I love about the M8 (and the DMR) is the ability to shoot right into the light and remain digital-artifact free. It's actually what finally tipped me into first buying Leica lenses and then the DMR. Edge conditions are what these systems excel at. BTW--Lens artifacts, such as they are--are A-OK with me under those circumstances. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/18702-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/?do=findComment&comment=201459'>More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted March 15, 2007 Share #48 Posted March 15, 2007 Why is it that some M8's do, and others don't?? [ Cloudiness. I have not been able to do this unless it is clear. I see similar jagginess (in relation to earlier posts in this thread) at the end of the solar streak. One pic is a crop from a 100% while the other is FF. Tom Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/18702-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/?do=findComment&comment=201480'>More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted March 15, 2007 Share #49 Posted March 15, 2007 Here is another shot, no streaking! The one with almost no shadow detail is straight, the other after fiddling in LR for a few seconds. Tom Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/18702-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/?do=findComment&comment=201484'>More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share #50 Posted March 15, 2007 Here is another shot, no streaking! The one with almost no shadow detail is straight, the other after fiddling in LR for a few seconds.Tom So Tom, did you send yours back? And thank you for posting these! Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share #51 Posted March 15, 2007 Tim, If one camera does this, and the other doesn't, then the one that does needs to go back right away. I feel badly for you, but I'm sure your diligence will be rewarded in the end! @ Rob, I'm not so sure about the exposure level--honestly--I've never seen anything like that before. The M8 shots I've got directly into noonday sun (extreme backlight) don't exhibit anything like the gnarly artifacts Tim has. Just for kicks, here's a quick, terribly over-exposed, artifact-free series of shots (100% crop from small-ish JPEG, but the DNGs are clean too). ISO 1250; shutter 1/45 s--so you know shooting point blank into a halogen bulb is going to be terribly overexposed--and they are! (BUT can I just say how much I love the way the 50 lux APSH treats this harsh harsh light!?!) Tim--now I've posted the most ridiculously shot and composed shots of all time here! But no artifacts. In fact, these are remarkably artifact-free IMO. And one of the things I love about the M8 (and the DMR) is the ability to shoot right into the light and remain digital-artifact free. It's actually what finally tipped me into first buying Leica lenses and then the DMR. Edge conditions are what these systems excel at. BTW--Lens artifacts, such as they are--are A-OK with me under those circumstances. Excellent! This whole thread was but a clever ruse to get you to post some really bad shots and I succeeded I'm going to juggle lenses, cards, warm up periods etc today and see... I'm also going to try the new 35 cron (if it arrives) to see if it focusses better on one body than the other. Then I'll probably have to return the camera. Dang! And Jamie you are as ever star. This 'together we can work it out' attitude should earn you a medal from Leica! And that Lux does render even a really bad shot beautifiully Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted March 15, 2007 Share #52 Posted March 15, 2007 having read some of the commenst here, I await with interest any explanations for the pattern effects appearing in the orange highlights (assuming I succeed in posting my attachments...). An overview, and 2 100% crops. File processed in C1-LE with no noise reduction and camera default colour noise reduction. Note how the patterns only appear in the orange highlights, even though they are not as blown out as some of the other highlights ???? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Guy Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Guy ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/18702-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/?do=findComment&comment=201715'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 15, 2007 Share #53 Posted March 15, 2007 Aliasing -a known tradeoff for having better resolution when there is no AA filter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted March 15, 2007 Share #54 Posted March 15, 2007 so aliasing only effects orange?? The patterns are on smooth areas of colour, there are lots of window blinds and other fine detail in the picture, albeit not in the crops, and none of the fine detail shows any problem, only areas of smooth orange. Look at the reflection of the vertical sign in the last crop, why would the actual sign alias, but not its refection in the adjacent window?? Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 15, 2007 Share #55 Posted March 15, 2007 Tim, Thanks for the kind words And maybe Guy is onto something here--maybe it's a saturated / overexposed in the 'orange' spectrum that does this? I don't have a lot of sunset shots with the M8; I do have a lot of direct sun shots (which are all fine). It hasn't been that sunny here, either I'm afraid! The sunset shots I do have were some with my "unfixed" camera but they don't exhibit this at all (but maybe they're not overexposed enough). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 15, 2007 Share #56 Posted March 15, 2007 so aliasing only effects orange?? The patterns are on smooth areas of colour, there are lots of window blinds and other fine detail in the picture, albeit not in the crops, and none of the fine detail shows any problem, only areas of smooth orange. Look at the reflection of the vertical sign in the last crop, why would the actual sign alias, but not its refection in the adjacent window??Guy The first part I cannot answer, maybe somebody else, deep into snsor technology, the second I can. A reflection produces a different level of detail, a shift in colour and a different angle, so that it reacts differently is no surprise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share #57 Posted March 15, 2007 Tim, Thanks for the kind words And maybe Guy is onto something here--maybe it's a saturated / overexposed in the 'orange' spectrum that does this? I don't have a lot of sunset shots with the M8; I do have a lot of direct sun shots (which are all fine). It hasn't been that sunny here, either I'm afraid! The sunset shots I do have were some with my "unfixed" camera but they don't exhibit this at all (but maybe they're not overexposed enough). Guy's shots are interesting - the pattern kind of looks like lines on a circuit board or sensor. I'm debating whether to return the camera. I just did side by side tests of a room with a bright halogen light source in it and the new M8 exhibits the odd pixel bleed whilst the old one doesn't at all, with same lens, ISO, F stop and shutter. I think I'll try to talk to someone at Leica tech and see what they say. I then remembered that Jono has often mention 'sparkle' on specular highlights so I took the new camera outside and shot a scene with sun glinting off chrome and water. On the camera's LCD you can just see a bit of pixel stuff but it looks fine on monitor at 100%. As long as I have two bodies, maybe I can just use the old one for sunsets Best Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoelscher Posted March 15, 2007 Share #58 Posted March 15, 2007 These "maze-like" artifacts were discovered back in November ... check out this post ... http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9330-18-hours-m8-pix-discoveries.html?highlight=maze#post93273 An interaction between Bayer algorithms/internal camera processing and raw conversion ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 15, 2007 Share #59 Posted March 15, 2007 I think I was hoping it was early M8 support in ACR causing this, and not C1, producing the artifacts (in orange there too), so I had completely forgotten about it. Guy--can you run your file in C1 with NR on and pattern noise on instead of turned off? I'd love a workaround till we figure this out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted March 15, 2007 Share #60 Posted March 15, 2007 @ Jaap, I appreciate that a reflection is somewhat different, but nonetheless there is no detail to alias in the affected areas of my shot, so I am sure its not aliasing. @ David, I was wondering about a raw developer issue, although I developed my picture with C1-LE, which is after all the 'official' Leica raw developer :-( @ Tim, I have only had my camera a few days, but its already clear that the lcd image is not much use for image quality assessment! sharpness and exposure yes, but not much more than that.. Let us know if Leica have anything to say! Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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