IkarusJohn Posted August 27, 2012 Share #81 Posted August 27, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) The one thing that's missing in your analysis, Steve, is that the remains of Kodak are still in that mass market supply. I agree with your assessment of film use. Cameras like the Monochrom will have some impact, but limited. I think we might be at or near the bottom of film demand - no growth to speak of, and no reduction either (other than a very slow decline, maybe). Much like the long tail, with the internet, there is a market there for the niche supplier. I doubt that market it big enough to re-inflate Kodak as a business at the size that warrants the purchase of anything other than its intellectual property and remaining patents. That suggests that the liquidators won't get a price which justifies breaking up the company and selling the assets (or a purchaser doing it instead). The future for Kodak is surely in small productions facilities meeting direct internet sales, rather than large brick and mortar assets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 27, 2012 Posted August 27, 2012 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here Kodak to sell its Film and Paper business [merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
KM-25 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share #82 Posted August 28, 2012 According to this USA Today article, the motion picture film division might be up for sale as well: "Kodak made a point of saying that businesses, such as consumer inkjet printing, motion picture and television film, and specialty chemicals, are outside of the core. Ken Luskin, president of California wealth management firm Intrinsic Value Asset Management, said the company seems to be indicating that it will also sell those businesses." Eastman Kodak exiting still photography business – USATODAY.com I also got an email from Audrey this evening that states Kodak film and pro paper will be represented at the Kodak booth at Photokina in Germany next month. At that time, they will launch the updated Kodak Professional Film website and brochures. It is expected to take until early to mid next year to finalize the sale of the still film unit. The key thing to remember here is that Kodak is marketing both Kodak still film and the Kodak still film customer to the potential buyers, so we are all literally in the spotlight together at the moment. So my feeling is lets not blow the chance we have all been talking about for years to get Kodak film in the hands of an eager new owner that could very well want to keep the products in our hands for longer than we thought possible. Keep buying it, shooting it and for god's sake, keep the vibe as positive as you can, I am going to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiMPLiFY Posted August 28, 2012 Share #83 Posted August 28, 2012 Kodak: All of America is Camera land! I was 1 year old when this was aired and not living in America. All of world is Camera Land now! As Archie Bunker sings "Those were the days". A lot of neat stuff in those archives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted August 28, 2012 Share #84 Posted August 28, 2012 John -- yes, it is smaller business going forward but it has already shrunk. new owners will be paying for a downsized business with downsized expectations and so, for the right price, it is a fair business to be in. similar thing happened to old airlines with costs tied to fixed rate system. when airline prices were deregulated the older airlines went out of business and new ones with cost structures reflective of current industry economics came in. this is what will happen with kodak film -- the price they fetch will reflect the downsized reality of the film industry. it is a profitable and sizable niche business, if priced right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjans Posted August 28, 2012 Share #85 Posted August 28, 2012 If Kodak 35mm film becomes extinct, then I will happily abandon 35mm. In my opinion, 35mm film is dead anyway. I will continue with medium-large (6cm X 9cm and 12cm) and LF. For '35mm' I will be happy with digital. The apparent difference does not appear in 35mm. Medium to large is clearly different. And there will be film for those formats for a long, long time.. You know that there are MF cameras nearly as compact, and certainly as inconspicuous as Leicas. No? They have been about since the Thirties. . Recently I got a MT Fujifilm GA645Zi. Compared to an M it is only a little bigger. I like it very much. Concerning Kodak film, I would regret to see Portra go, but there is still Fuji. The latter being more available in local shops in my country. Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim123 Posted August 28, 2012 Share #86 Posted August 28, 2012 Once Kodak discontinued their slide films I have switched to Fuji. Now I dont care what happens to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 28, 2012 Share #87 Posted August 28, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) John -- yes, it is smaller business going forward but it has already shrunk. new owners will be paying for a downsized business with downsized expectations and so, for the right price, it is a fair business to be in. similar thing happened to old airlines with costs tied to fixed rate system. when airline prices were deregulated the older airlines went out of business and new ones with cost structures reflective of current industry economics came in. this is what will happen with kodak film -- the price they fetch will reflect the downsized reality of the film industry. it is a profitable and sizable niche business, if priced right. That is based on an assumption that the facilities and business can be economically run to supply a smaller market. Or that there is enough profit for a few more years before the facilities will have to be changed. Kodak's explanation for dropping slide film and Plus X was there was not enough demand to make the films. If there was still a profit in smaller runs why would they have dropped these? In addition some sizes have been dropped and that is mostly just a cutting and packaging issue. So there are minimal thresholds for viability but we don't know what they are and any potential buyer will have to try to figure that out and then predict the direction of the market. There is no reason to believe that anyone would continue making any particular film should the market for it fall too far. ----------------------- "Due to a steady decrease in sales and customer usage, combined with highly complex product formulation and manufacturing processes, Kodak is discontinuing three EKTACHROME (color reversal) Films:" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share #88 Posted August 28, 2012 Once Kodak discontinued their slide films I have switched to Fuji. Now I dont care what happens to them. Then why post here? You have moved on, present and future Kodak marketing people are reading this as well as those new comers who might otherwise try the great Kodak film that is left. All you are doing by saying this is hurting the prospect for the rest of us who do want to use it, why be childish about it? Just move on... This is exactly what I am talking about when I refer to how bad the internet photo communities appear to an outsider, the rampant ugliness of what has happened to this craft because of bitter self serving jabs all over the internet like this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted August 28, 2012 Share #89 Posted August 28, 2012 Who ever thought they'd see the day Kodak were putting their film business up for sale?! Thing is, what happens if they can't find a buyer? Whilst I sincerely hope that there is a buyer, and they continue to produce the films, chemicals and papers we know, if the worst happens imagine what that will do for the likes of Fuji and Ilford? They will see a massive surge in sales and Market share, no doubt leading to investment in new products and services for film users. Playing devils advocate, maybe a smaller number of stronger players could be a good thing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 28, 2012 Share #90 Posted August 28, 2012 This is exactly what I am talking about when I refer to how bad the internet photo communities appear to an outsider, the rampant ugliness of what has happened to this craft because of bitter self serving jabs all over the internet like this one. I have to disagree. The idea that people should only post positive opinions while individual emulsions, and whole brands disappear is ignoring what is happening. I also think that you over estimate the power of internet forums. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 28, 2012 Share #91 Posted August 28, 2012 Keep an eye on the news regarding Kodak's 1,100 digital patents auction. They hint that they will respond to the bids tomorrow, Aug 29. That's a hint; not a promise. So far the bids total about 500 million dollars - close to the loan they took out to remain in business for a while. That's not very much money considering how much Kodak has made suing for patent infringements and upon patent licenses over the past few years as it continued to burn money until it was gone. After the patent auction we will probably get more firm announcements from Kodak regarding the sale of film and chemistry. But Kodak going head-to-head against current consumer printer manufacturers seems like another suicide mission. They would be better off going into a business with government subsidies - like corporate farming. (I crack me up.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted August 28, 2012 Share #92 Posted August 28, 2012 pico -- i don't always agree with you but you are right on this one. on look at hp and you can see how well selling printers has worked out. yup, maybe farming -- or opening a bank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 28, 2012 Share #93 Posted August 28, 2012 Keep an eye on the news regarding Kodak's 1,100 digital patents auction. They hint that they will respond to the bids tomorrow, Aug 29. That's a hint; not a promise. So far the bids total about 500 million dollars - close to the loan they took out to remain in business for a while. That's not very much money considering how much Kodak has made suing for patent infringements and upon patent licenses over the past few years as it continued to burn money until it was gone. If you dig deeper you will see that several giant tech firms including Apple, Google, and Samsung have ganged up to form a consortium instead of competing with each other as they pick through the carcass. Is America great for business or what? I don't see how this is anything but collusion to keep the price artificially low and prevent Kodak's debt holders from recovering fair value. But I'm not a lawyer either. Kodak Patent Auction Creates Strange Bedfellows - WSJ.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share #94 Posted August 28, 2012 I have to disagree. The idea that people should only post positive opinions while individual emulsions, and whole brands disappear is ignoring what is happening. I also think that you over estimate the power of internet forums. And I am going to disagree with you and not give a flying you know what how it sounds either since I just had a root canal performed about two hours ago. I deal with hundreds of people each year that are either interested in photography, do it for a living or are in the marketing end of it and one of the most damaging things there is out there for anyone's product is ill will in word of mouth, this is business 101 bud! They ALL read it on the piece of SH_T INTERNET, ALL OF THEM!!!!! I just get sick of it, day after day, hour after hour of hearing why someone left film, left Kodak, dumped this, hates that, it goes on and on and on and it is SICKENING!! Just shut the hell up for once, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SHOOT KODAK FILM HERE AND WILL DO ANYTHING THEY CAN TO SEE IT BE POSSIBLE, YOU ARE ADDING NOTING TO HELP US!!!!! How does telling everyone that you dumped Kodak because they had to rescale help ANYONE but the person posting it to feel good about his or her choice. Film needs talent, it needs visionaries and it needs help, this garbage is NOT any of that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 28, 2012 Share #95 Posted August 28, 2012 And I am going to disagree with you and not give a flying you know what how it sounds either since I just had a root canal performed about two hours ago. That would explain an attitude. I am also familiar with the alleged response of the average, naive reader, however no study I know of has determined that they are a significant proportion of the target consumers. Correct me if I am wrong - with citations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted August 29, 2012 Share #96 Posted August 29, 2012 But Kodak going head-to-head against current consumer printer manufacturers seems like another suicide mission. They would be better off going into a business with government subsidies - like corporate farming. (I crack me up.) pico -- i don't always agree with you but you are right on this one. on look at hp and you can see how well selling printers has worked out. yup, maybe farming -- or opening a bank. Just for the record, their emphasis is not in consumer printing but in commercial printing. They did say that they would continue to sell consumer printers for the time being, but it's the commercial side that they are fully involved in (plus commercial consumables like digital offset plates, halftone proofing media, and their Matchprint proofing media for pigment inks produced from any brand of commercial printers.) commercial offset printing: Offset CTP - Kodak Graphic Communications Group commercial digital printing: Digital Printing Solutions - Kodak Graphic Communications Group Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted August 29, 2012 Share #97 Posted August 29, 2012 Root canals and all, the only sensible thing to do here is to keep Ilford in business and buy enough to allow them to create new emulsions. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 29, 2012 Share #98 Posted August 29, 2012 And I am going to disagree with you and not give a flying you know what how it sounds either since I just had a root canal performed about two hours ago. I deal with hundreds of people each year that are either interested in photography, do it for a living or are in the marketing end of it and one of the most damaging things there is out there for anyone's product is ill will in word of mouth, this is business 101 bud! They ALL read it on the piece of SH_T INTERNET, ALL OF THEM!!!!! I just get sick of it, day after day, hour after hour of hearing why someone left film, left Kodak, dumped this, hates that, it goes on and on and on and it is SICKENING!! Just shut the hell up for once, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SHOOT KODAK FILM HERE AND WILL DO ANYTHING THEY CAN TO SEE IT BE POSSIBLE, YOU ARE ADDING NOTING TO HELP US!!!!! How does telling everyone that you dumped Kodak because they had to rescale help ANYONE but the person posting it to feel good about his or her choice. Film needs talent, it needs visionaries and it needs help, this garbage is NOT any of that! Consider directing most of your anger at Kodak because they did this to themselves and now they are dumping film too. Most consumers, pros, and users of applied photography, made an economic choice to go with digital... whether they were talented or visionaries or just the average Joe. Even when people have a passion for photography it doesn't necessarily come down to a passion for the process. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 29, 2012 Share #99 Posted August 29, 2012 I just get sick of it, day after day, hour after hour of hearing why someone left film, left Kodak, dumped this, hates that, it goes on and on and on and it is SICKENING!! Just shut the hell up for once, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SHOOT KODAK FILM HERE AND WILL DO ANYTHING THEY CAN TO SEE IT BE POSSIBLE, YOU ARE ADDING NOTING TO HELP US!!!!! You are obviously upset that fewer types of film are available to the general public, but given that this thread is about Kodak pulling out of film production after 100+ years it's understandable if the opinions expressed in it aren't all positive. As someone who has by their own admission spent $12,000 so far this year stocking up with film - impressive fridge by the way - it is obvious that you too share the concerns of many people, even if you prefer not to express them in public. Anyhow, Kodak and Efke getting out of film production will hopefully be good news for Ilford. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 29, 2012 Share #100 Posted August 29, 2012 Agreed And Kodak could make it a lot easier for themselves if they were a lot more open with the Press Releases so that it was completely clear to anyone reading it what the current situation is, rather than the obtuse nonsense that drives internet speculation in the first place. When the business correspondent on the flagship BBC Radio 4 morning news programme stated only last week that Kodak had "stopped making film", it is obvious that Kodak's communications team should be the first to get the boot. I want to shoot Kodak black and white film. I like it. But that's despite Kodak and their ineptitude, which I fear has now driven the film division into a spiral from which it will not escape. When I next get the opportunity, I will do some comparison tests between HP5 and Tri-X Long live black and white film. Long live Ilford. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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