Yet Another Breakdown. Enough.

[barjohn]

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From my point of view, I really don't care whether Canon has or had problems or any other camera maker. What I care about is the camera I purchased and having its problems addressed/fixed. I would also like to see improved communications between Leica and its customers. Yes, I know, some of you have personal relationships and are accorded much more open communications; however, most of us are not in that category and it is with us that the communications needs improvement. Yesterday, I took the time to write a letter and fax it to Mr. Erhardt, as of today I have not even received an email acknowledgment. An email saying; "I have received your fax and I am giving your suggestions and questions serious consideration, will get back to you soon", would have been nice. Such a message would be a nice way of saying you are a valued customer and whether I think you have a valid point or not your concerns won't be ignored.

[blado]

I, too, have experienced lock-ups, "card full" messages with red-light flashing, partial operation, etc, but have been able to recover by removing bottom plate and battery (several times, often). I have an early model (3101608) and have not sent in for the fix yet. I feel like the longer I wait, the better! It gives one an uneasy feeling at all times when using the camera...

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped} An email saying; "I have received your fax and I am giving your suggestions and questions serious consideration, will get back to you soon", would have been nice. Such a message would be a nice way of saying you are a valued customer and whether I think you have a valid point or not your concerns won't be ignored.

 

Did you send them your email address, since you faxed it? Just kidding--please don't flame me!

 

Look, John, what you say is fair comment; I've said that over and over again.

 

But please--it's what? 72 hours after PMA? People are travelling West to East; it's only Tuesday... come on...this is a small company, and they're doing their best, I believe. Just because you don't get a automatic reply within 24 hours doesn't mean they don't take you in particular seriously.

 

I'm going to WPPI in Vegas, Leica is sure to be there; I'll suggest they set up an auto-responder to folks if it will make you feel any better. Though how in heck they autorespond to a fax is beyond me.

 

Anyway, I've had very good service from them despite no personal relationship whatsoever.

 

The only reason I mentioned another high-end camera brand is to set some expectation around brand new--not simply commodity--technology. This can happen to any "bleeding edge" technology product, in my experience. As a software development manager, you should know this well.

 

I'm just interested, too, in holding Leica to a bar that I'd hold others too. So far, despite the initial problems--which I fully admit were not a good way to release the camera--Leica has been as good as their word.

 

People like me, Marc, Guy and others who bought the first ones on the strength of other technology like the DMR have every reason to be shocked and troubled by that first set of issues... particularly the IR issue that didn't make it into *any* of the reviews.

 

Anyone buying after that date should understand there are issues here that need fixing, and it will take time.

 

For some people, that means getting out of M and getting out of M8. For others of us, that means hanging in there (and yes, relegating the M8 to a more minor role till it's better, but not that it would take the place of an SLR anyway!).

 

For some pure consumers expecting a commodity product, I feel sorry that they're having these troubles. Seriously. Perhaps they should wait till the next generation of the camera.

 

Having said all that--the over-reporting of these issues gets everyone's back up and makes us all twitchy about the camera. So that's why I mentioned the other problems with other cameras.

 

Those systems had happy endings; there's no reason--yet--that the M8's can't be just as positive.

 

So again, I think we all need to be more patient.

 

Edmund, for all that I understand his frustration, and my utter empathy (and yeah--I'm scared too, and I don't like it)--well, he should be calling Leica directly. If he hasn't, and he doesn't want to, then ok. But he didn't report that yet.

[jaapv]

 

Anyway, I've had very good service from them despite no personal relationship whatsoever.

 

The only reason I mentioned another high-end camera brand is to set some expectation around brand new--not simply commodity--technology. This can happen to any "bleeding edge" technology product, in my experience. As a software development manager, you should know this well.

 

I'm just interested, too, in holding Leica to a bar that I'd hold others too. So far, despite the initial problems--which I fully admit were not a good way to release the camera--Leica has been as good as their word.

 

People like me, Marc, Guy and others who bought the first ones on the strength of other technology like the DMR have every reason to be shocked and troubled by that first set of issues... particularly the IR issue that didn't make it into *any* of the reviews.

 

Anyone buying after that date should understand there are issues here that need fixing, and it will take time.

 

For some people, that means getting out of M and getting out of M8. For others of us, that means hanging in there (and yes, relegating the M8 to a more minor role till it's better, but not that it would take the place of an SLR anyway!).

 

 

Having said all that--the over-reporting of these issues gets everyone's back up and makes us all twitchy about the camera. So that's why I mentioned the other problems with other cameras.

 

Those systems had happy endings; there's no reason--yet--that the M8's can't be just as positive.

 

Somewhat edited- sorry Jamie - a very reasonable and balanced post. I would like to add: Those of us that got into a first-generation camera in a virtually virgin territory have no reason to be shocked by the problems encountered - nor did I get the impression that we were. We should not be overwhelmed by the dust-storm generated in those first few weeks, mostly by posters who did not even own a M8 or should not have been swept into buying one - at least that soon.(Not meant as a sneer - I mean it was not thought through all the way by all early buyers, making for bitter disappointment -understandably- by some).

I was one of the lucky ones. I figured out the IR problem with 24 hours, my local camera shop had a few correct size IR filters, my camera showed only minor banding, the battery (or charger) went haywire only two days before Solms collected the camera, it was returned within two weeks, I bought a second one over the counter that has proved to be completely troublefree, my 30% lens arrived within the week,and has not damaged my camera's despite being a "forbidden"lens, Leica has been very good - and personal- in their service. It is a pity not everybody was this lucky - it would have superb if it had been that way - but it was not to be expected. To those that have had more trouble: keep faith, once this camera works for you - and it will- it will be the camera to end all other cameras for a long haul.

[hankg]

Brand new systems untested in the real world will have problems. Often serious problems. Early adopters always should proceed at their own risk. In the medium format digital forums on L-L I came across this comment by James Russell (http://www.russellrutherford.com/):

 

"Out of the 14 professional digital cameras I have owned which covers 5 brands only two have come out of the box (Canon 1ds (original) and Phase P-30) working as advertised so I must assume that any new camera and back combination that hits the market brand new, must have a few glitches that have to be "beta tested" out of them before they are ready for large pressured production."

 

Included in that mix of cameras that failed in one way or another on the job were the 1Ds MKII, Leaf Aptus back and Nikon D2X. No consolation if your M8 is busted, but it does put things in perspective. The most important thing is for Leica to remain engaged and proactive vis-a-vis users and for Leica to ensure that it's service department is up to the task of keeping users shooting rather then venting.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I know James well and he certainly has had his share of issues with several systems.

 

This is nothing new , folks expect leica's to work because it is leica . Well all good intentions but this is digital and after 15 years of it, i seen plenty to know if it has a battery in it, it will fail at some point. I know people are upset , it happened to me and for 5 minutes i almost threw it in the lake but better judgement prevailed. You shoot digital for a living than you need a backup and if you expect stuff to work every time than really you are fooling yourself and if it don't happen than the camera Gods are being good to you. Yes OEM's can get the solutions correct to make it very rare indeed for failure and that is what Leica is trying to do, there is no secret here. They know it.

[Guest magyarman]

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folks expect leica's to work because it is leica .

 

In reality world folks expect any one camera suppose to work. Only what is differents with Leica, they got some costumors what are so preferable Leica marque, they willing to stand with Leica compagnie does not matters how many time will takes them fix up prablems.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

And people with any system do the same thing , it's there investment in the systems . There all the same. i love leica gear but if someone has something better , i will be all over that if it makes sense. Nothing out there does . That's the bottom line, i don't collect this stuff . I use it and abuse it everyday to make money. Leica does have many collectors though and they love what leica stands for and there history. YOUR never going to change that with any comment

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Blasko last time i will even address you since you bring nothing to the party . But there is one REAL issue with the M8 that is a real issue and that is the failures that have happened . The Ir filters and the rest are just maybe some annoyances that will be fixed. But i have shot over 12000 images on them about 30 jobs and acounted for about 50 grand in revenue. Now you want to tell me that it sucks and i am a fool than i will tell you what i will do . You give me 50 grand and i will sell all of them and use something else.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}You give me 50 grand and i will sell all of them and use something else.

 

Nicely put, Guy!

 

So far, I haven't had anything but a good experience with the M8 on paying jobs, though even if I did sell them for 50 grand what other digital rangefinder would I use?

[Guest magyarman]

Now you want to tell me that it sucks and i am a fool

 

This I never tell. Every time you imagination someone make insulting camera what you in love, you sound like become from man to wulf. No one other professionalists here make like you reactiv.

[eronald]

But there is one REAL issue with the M8 that is a real issue and that is the failures that have happened .

 

 

Hey, Guy, the doctor gave you somehing that suddenly improved your memory ? You remember your failures now ?

 

My Leica is now in the repair pipeline - so no revenues.

 

Edmund

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Say something that has real meaning instead of being a troll. It's got nothing to do with the camera , your questioning peoples decisions on what they want to shoot with, the camera has a few issues . Big deal it works for me

 

BTW i know exactly who you are now, you can go back to photo.net now

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Hey, Guy, the doctor gave you somehing that suddenly improved your memory ? You remember your failures now ?

 

My Leica is now in the repair pipeline - so no revenues.

 

Edmund

 

 

You know what Edmund i told you to call Germany and you did not listen to the advice and now your questioning my memory which i posted 6 times in the last 2 days that i was one of the first to get a failure. I know what happened to mine , no question about it but your bashing everyone and anything in site because you had a failure. i blamed no one for mine. But i can certainly resind my recommendation for a loaner body for you and also my recommendation to C1 to buy your profile. Hope that helps your memory

[wlaidlaw]

As an amateur using an M8, I feel I am in the lucky position of being like someone who owns an old Ferrari as a second car. You can get in it on a Sunday morning and press the starter button . There is that brief frisson when you don't know if you will get varrrrooom or a Magnetti Marelli moment (anyone who has ever had an old Italian car knows this one). If it works - great you go and have a nice drive. If it doesn't - no great tragedy you can always use your other car.

 

A professional with an M8 is like the two occasions I have tried to use an old Ferrari as an everyday car (I must be a masochist). On a wet November Monday morning it says no thank you; you then have to go and wake your other half up and ask her to take you to the station again; you bring a large bunch of flowers back in the evening and try to avoid the questions as to how much is it going to cost this time. You can do it but it's damned hard work. You tend to become quickly bored and go out and buy a BMW.

 

Wilson

[eronald]

You know what Edmund i told you to call Germany and you did not listen to the advice and now your questioning my memory which i posted 6 times in the last 2 days that i was one of the first to get a failure. I know what happened to mine , no question about it but your bashing everyone and anything in site because you had a failure. i blamed no one for mine. But i can certainly resind my recommendation for a loaner body for you and also my recommendation to C1 to buy your profile. Hope that helps your memory

 

Guy, I really didn't get your post or reply to my email. Really, really. In fact I was very surprised.

 

I called Germany, of course, they told me to send the camera in, which I've done and promised to call me back today re. a loaner, which they did not do.

 

Edmund

[chris_tribble]

Edmund - this won't fix your problem (I feel for you) but it might give a platform for informed discussion with Leica. You might want to complete the survey at:

 

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/18954-internet-survey-luf-m8-experience-date.html

[mwilliamsphotography]

Guy, God love ya', I'd dearly love to have a friend like you in a time of need if your support for this camera is any indication : -)

 

Of course I have more than one camera with me when on the job. However, I don't have both of them to my eye as the "Moment" happens.

 

Ironically, the camera that I used to sling over my shoulder as my most trusted immediate back-up was an M7.

[eronald]

 

BTW i know exactly who you are now, you can go back to photo.net now

 

Cannot remember ever being at photo.net a lot (maybe 5 years ago ?) but used to like the RG forum - unluckily I was not one of those who got chucked, so my posts are still there with my name on them

 

These days all the high-grade trolls like me, JR, MT (wonderful to mention myself in the same breath), we hang out on LL where people regularly call me an idiot because of the nonsense I post

 

As far as the Leica is concerned my latest batch of 1.092 profiles isn't very satisfying anyway, even for my own use - something I'm not doing right, or some change in the camera, I cannot tell. I'm not going to push my own product when I'm not happy with it even for my own uses, but I don't thing my momentary enforced absence is going to be very annoying for the community.

 

BTW, Guy, why did you drop the DMR ? It seems this may still be the best performing 35mm system around -

 

 

Edmund.

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[larry]

Edmund,

 

I think Guy was referring to Blasko.

 

Larry