marknorton Posted August 4, 2012 Share #121  Posted August 4, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) That is to say: The boxes are not their direction. The lenses are. l  Without an M camera, the lenses are largely useless, so Leica has had to get in the messy business of building cameras.  They can claim the M9 is the smallest full frame camera but it struggles to get the best out of the lenses, it struggles in low light, it's noisier and thicker than many would like, the display is poor and so on.  I really hope that a new M camera shows real technical innovation instead of the piece-meal incremental development we have seen thus far. Cameras may not be Leica's prime interest but if we are served up with a new bottle, same dreary old vintage, I will wonder what all the new engineers have been doing with their time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 Hi marknorton, Take a look here M10: A Vital Part. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Steve Ash Posted August 4, 2012 Share #122  Posted August 4, 2012 For me Leica is all about the rangefinder. I enjoy the lens quality but this had not attracted me enough to buy into the system on its own. Steve   Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 4, 2012 Share #123  Posted August 4, 2012 Hello Mark,  I think the Leitz/Leica direction has been, for the most part, to put the new whatever in more or less the old box which pretty much looks & acts like the old box but w/ ergonometrically designed improvements.  Except when there have been generational changes: IIIf to M3.  Example: M2 followed by M4 followed by M6 followed by M9.  Example: Leicaflex followed by Leicaflex SL.  There have been occasional complexities such as: After M4 there was CL + M5 which was updated w/ M6.  btw: As we write that still leaves us w/ the issue of that pesky range/viewfinder.  Best Regards,  Michael  Who enjoys the range/viewfinder in an M3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted August 4, 2012 Share #124 Â Posted August 4, 2012 Who enjoys the range/viewfinder in an M3? Â I don't. Â Why not? Â Because it has no SD card slot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 4, 2012 Share #125 Â Posted August 4, 2012 Hello 01af, Â I like a lot of things about an M3 but: I agree. Â I would also like a digital module that would replace a film cartridge & allow an M3 to come into the 21'st Century. Â Best Regards, Â Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 4, 2012 Share #126 Â Posted August 4, 2012 I would also like a digital module that would replace a film cartridge & allow an M3 to come into the 21'st Century. Â That dream imploded many years ago, but now it is baaaack as a prank. Â Another concept here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 4, 2012 Share #127 Â Posted August 4, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) So what brand would be more "Leica" then? I suggest you would not be "gone" but simply would carry on shooting your M9. Â The shame and humiliation of not upgrading would be too much to bear. Â Yes of course I would most likely continue with the M9 until it was no longer repairable. Which if the M10 departs radically, and the DMR is an indication, might not be all that long. Â But if Leica takes the M system away from what made me prefer it to an SLR, I would see no reason not to go back to an SLR. So far although Canon has added Live View and video capability (usable video BTW because of AF), I can completely ignore them. It's not the same thing as though they have replaced the reflex viewing with an EVF...yet. Â But as long as Leica keeps the EVF to an optional accessory, I'm totally OK with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 4, 2012 Share #128 Â Posted August 4, 2012 Hello pico, Â As per a mechanism w/ the dimensions of a film cartridge & attendant film thru the gate to convert a film camera to digital: Â It took hundreds of years for Sikorsky to get Leonardo Da Vinci's helicopter off the ground. It didn't take all that long for Star Trek's "Kirk to Enterprise" to become yesterday's obsolete flip phone. Â Historically there have NOT been that many things in the World that were impossible to do. It's just that some things take longer than others & some may have a few more bumps in the road. Â Best Regards, Â Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesk8752 Posted August 4, 2012 Share #129 Â Posted August 4, 2012 (snip)But if Leica takes the M system away from what made me prefer it to an SLR, I would see no reason not to go back to an SLR. Â You mean, nothing beside the outstanding lenses, the compact size, and the lower weight of the digital M? A honkin' big Canon DSLR is not an optical or ergonomic replacement for a Leica RF, with or without the projected additions to the M10, IMO... Â Regards, Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 4, 2012 Share #130  Posted August 4, 2012 Historically there have NOT been that many things in the World that were impossible to do. It isn’t impossible; in fact it has been done already. Leica’s DMR is one example and Silicon Film (Silicon Film - Dead Media Archive) is another. The problem isn’t that it is impossible, just that it isn’t such a swell idea to begin with. Any such a solution will always be less attractive than a real digital camera and thus it wouldn’t stand a chance in today’s market. There was a small window of opportunity where this idea had something going for it, but that window has closed years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 4, 2012 Share #131  Posted August 4, 2012  You mean, nothing beside the outstanding lenses, the compact size, and the lower weight of the digital M? A honkin' big Canon DSLR is not an optical or ergonomic replacement for a Leica RF, with or without the projected additions to the M10, IMO.. Regards, Jim  Nothing mitigates an EVF for me. I detest them. So if I have to use one, I can mount lenses on any number of light, compact mirrorless bodies costing a fraction of a Leica M. But the best ergonomics and the most superb lenses do me no good if the viewing interface stifles my creative instinct, which is what an EVF does; so I would have to put up with the "honking" DSLR. Or accept a crop sensor and use one of a number of them that are actually smaller and lighter than the M series. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 4, 2012 Share #132 Â Posted August 4, 2012 I do not think the DMR is a good example, as it was not built by Leica and got caught up in inter-corporate wrangling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 4, 2012 Share #133  Posted August 4, 2012 I do not think the DMR is a good example, as it was not built by Leica and got caught up in inter-corporate wrangling. It is a good example for the technical viability of this concept. Any vendor could build something similar if there was a market for such a product. There isn’t. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 4, 2012 Share #134  Posted August 4, 2012 It is a good example for the technical viability of this concept. Any vendor could build something similar if there was a market for such a product. There isn’t.  For that matter Kodak's early DSLRs were simply a back that fit onto Nikon bodies. But before long they integrated the cameras and electronics.  The rangefinder/viewfinder and existing lenses are a big draw for the M system. If Leica's engineers are up to snuff they will someday figure out how to seriously modernize and expand the system without losing these two requirements. Or they will make an entirely separate system that runs along with the M. Or they will not make any really modern highly technological "system" cameras besides the S system.  Many have expressed similar theories countless times so there really is nothing new except that Fuji has proven that a hybrid viewfinder is possible. Nikon, Canon, and others have shown that sensor based phase detect AF is possible. And Nikon has a camera (J1) that does not have a mechanical shutter. (Yes I know it is not full frame.) So the future for Leica is pretty wide open if they can access this technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 5, 2012 Share #135 Â Posted August 5, 2012 Hello Michael, Â A bump in the road. Â Hasselblad figured out something viable for its 500 series which works reasonably well by today's standards today. Â Micro-Electronics are better, smaller, cheaper & more versatile than they were a year or 2 ago. Even better than they were 2 weeks ago. Micro-Electronics is a developing technology w/ a long way to go which is just @ the beginnning now. Think: Industrial Revolution 1820. Maybe 1810. If it is not do-able today: Tomorrow is technologically not that far away. Â Another unspoken issue in this Thread is: Not only is the range/viewfinder the Secret Weapon/Achillies Heel of an "M" today, but: The same goes for almost anything mechanical inside its shell: That nice, slow, last for ever shutter & everything that goes w/ it are on borrowed time. Â No camera manufacturer anywhere wants to help 50 years of old camera bodies, regardless of brand, enter the 21st Century w/ a relatively inexpensive device. Â Best Regards, Â Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesk8752 Posted August 5, 2012 Share #136 Â Posted August 5, 2012 Nothing mitigates an EVF for me. I detest them. So if I have to use one, I can mount lenses on any number of light, compact mirrorless bodies costing a fraction of a Leica M. But the best ergonomics and the most superb lenses do me no good if the viewing interface stifles my creative instinct, which is what an EVF does; so I would have to put up with the "honking" DSLR. Or accept a crop sensor and use one of a number of them that are actually smaller and lighter than the M series. Â We don't disagree here, as long as you mean that an EVF (or LCD live view) would be the only means of framing/focusing. But my comment referred to the upcoming M10, which by most accounts will retain the mechanical RF but supplement it with live view and some form of focus confirmation on the rear LCD screen to assist focusing closeup subjects and long lenses. You can choose to use these adjuncts or not. I don't see this as a problem; do you? Â Regards, Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 5, 2012 Share #137  Posted August 5, 2012  We don't disagree here, as long as you mean that an EVF (or LCD live view) would be the only means of framing/focusing. But my comment referred to the upcoming M10, which by most accounts will retain the mechanical RF but supplement it with live view and some form of focus confirmation on the rear LCD screen to assist focusing closeup subjects and long lenses. You can choose to use these adjuncts or not. I don't see this as a problem; do you?  Regards, Jim  Not at all. It wouldn't be a problem for me if the M10 has a cappicino maker as long as a) I don't have to buy it, and it doesn't insert itself in the traditional M rangefinder interface. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 5, 2012 Share #138 Â Posted August 5, 2012 I do not think the DMR is a good example, as it was not built by Leica and got caught up in inter-corporate wrangling. Â That's an excuse, not a reason. Only if Leica had been so stupid as to not retain the rights to the technology could they not have found some other subcontractors to build spare parts. The only other plausible explanation is they see no profit in it. And once the M9 is discontinued, they have no more motivation to go to lengths to support it once the existing stock of spares is exhausted. I fear that 21st century economics and corporate thinking, plus consumer perception of rapid obsolescence and the resultant rapid depreciation has brought the days of protracted support from Leica to an end...though in this case I really do hope and wish to be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted August 5, 2012 Share #139 Â Posted August 5, 2012 @bocaburger--I wish you wrong too. By the way, I have been meaning to ask you if you eat Bocaburgers? I believe they are still available in Publix Supermarkets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 5, 2012 Share #140 Â Posted August 5, 2012 @bocaburger--I wish you wrong too. By the way, I have been meaning to ask you if you eat Bocaburgers? I believe they are still available in Publix Supermarkets. Haven't eaten one in years. Morningstar makes the best veggie burgers IMO. Probably need to change my screen name Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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