karman Posted March 11, 2007 Share #1 Â Posted March 11, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) We have now the Digilux-3 (7.5MP), three Leica D-lenses (2 zooms + 25mm prime f/1.4), and the Olympus Zuiko lenses. My impression is that most people are positive on the image quality of this lineup, so this suggests that investing in a 4/3 system should be fairly futureproof. Â What I am interested in are the improvements we can reasonably expect in the near future. For example: - Better sensor (lower noise, more MP)? - Has anyone seen a Leica D-lens roadmap? Â We all know that noise in a 4/3 sensor will always be larger than in full frame sensors, but I wonder to what extent there is still scope for sensor improvement? In my view, this will ultimately determine the available light performance of the D-system. Â Thanks for your thoughts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 11, 2007 Posted March 11, 2007 Hi karman, Take a look here Is an investment in Leica D-system + lenses futureproof?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
harjtt Posted March 11, 2007 Share #2  Posted March 11, 2007 Here's the Leica D road map:  Šg‘å‰æ‘œ  The 45mm f2 OIS macro and the 50-150 OIS tele from that road-map won't appear until 2008.  Regards sensor technology, I think the best indicator is going to come from the two new Olympus cameras 410/510 which both use a 10MP Nmos sensor. I'm assuming that this is a new sensor by Panasonic rather than the existing sensor in the L1/Digilux3/E330 with a few more MP. This sensor or another version of it is has also been penciled in for the E1 replacement.  Cheers  HarjTT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamilsukun Posted March 11, 2007 Share #3 Â Posted March 11, 2007 The compact camera road goes to full frame. Opening a cafe on the way is purely a personal preference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
egibaud Posted March 11, 2007 Share #4 Â Posted March 11, 2007 I asked myself the same question and came to the following conclusion. It would be stupid to buy a Digilux 3 or a Panasonic L1 and end up using Olympus or Sigma lenses.... in this case you'd better same your money and directly by the Olympus. Â Regarding future... at the speed Leica is launching D lenses I'd pray so Olympus and Sigma save the 4/3 format from dying because no one will wait 2 years to get more than 2 Leica lenses available. Â As I still wanted Leica lenses, I bought an M8 Â Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
audidudi Posted March 11, 2007 Share #5 Â Posted March 11, 2007 It would be stupid to buy a Digilux 3 or a Panasonic L1 and end up using Olympus or Sigma lenses.... in this case you'd better same your money and directly by the Olympus. I disagree with you on this point rather vigorously, as there are a significant number of operational differences between the L1/D3 and various Olympus 4/3 cameras, even if they do share more than a few internal bits. Â For me, these differences, starting with the basic shape of the body, are significant enough that I would not have purchased a 4/3 camera had the L1/D2 body not been available. Â That said, the differences between the Leica and Panasonic versions were not significant enough for me to purchase the Leica instead of the much less expensive Panasonic (which cost me just over half -- US$1299 -- of what a D3 sells for). Leica wins some and loses some... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dist Posted March 11, 2007 Share #6 Â Posted March 11, 2007 I disagree with you on this point rather vigorously, as there are a significant number of operational differences between the L1/D3 and various Olympus 4/3 cameras, even if they do share more than a few internal bits.For me, these differences, starting with the basic shape of the body, are significant enough that I would not have purchased a 4/3 camera had the L1/D2 body not been available. Agreed. Same here. The analog look and feel made the difference for me. Â Coming back to the original question about being futureproof: My take is in this day and age simply nothing is. Making the move to digital means caving in to the dark side, one way or the other. You think full frame is going to be the end of the line? No way, they're going to come up with countless "innovations" to make you part with your hard earned cash. Whatever you buy now is never going to last anywhere near as long as analog technology would, back in its day. Seems to be a new law of nature. Â Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted March 11, 2007 Share #7 Â Posted March 11, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Btw, Olympus make some of the best lenses in the business. Their teles can hold their own against almost anything out there. I would not lump them with Sigma. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
audidudi Posted March 11, 2007 Share #8 Â Posted March 11, 2007 Coming back to the original question about being futureproof: My take is in this day and age simply nothing is. This is certainly true with regard to other digital-type devices, such as computers. I don't expect to use anything I buy that's computer-related for more than three years or so and this certainly seems to hold true for digital cameras as well. For instance, I fully expect to replace my L1 with something else by 2010... Â Whatever you buy now is never going to last anywhere near as long as analog technology would, back in its day. Seems to be a new law of nature. There's a difference between a product continuing to perform (as in operate) in the future and a product continuing to perform well in comparision to then-current technology. While I do expect to replace my L1 by 2010, I certainly would be disappointed if I had to do so because it was broken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dist Posted March 11, 2007 Share #9 Â Posted March 11, 2007 There's a difference between a product continuing to perform (as in operate) in the future and a product continuing to perform well in comparision to then-current technology. While I do expect to replace my L1 by 2010, I certainly would be disappointed if I had to do so because it was broken. Â I wholeheartedly agree, but I guess that's not the OP's point. It's about the system being futureproof. In other words, suppose your L1 body went tits up (um, had an irrecoverable defect ) in 2010, would you be able to substitute it with another, say Oly, body so as to preserve your investment in lenses. My guess is yes but that's just a gut feeling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo_Lorentzen Posted March 12, 2007 Share #10  Posted March 12, 2007 Dieter,  I tend to agree with you, for several reasons, it must have taken Leica a good deal of pondering to commit their name (for better of worse) to any lens standard, Both Leica and Panasonic would damage their name significantly by quickly changing lens-system again, if they did many of us would be reluctant to purchase another "new" Leica or Panasonic standard.. (not counting that Olympus at this point have a growing installed user-base. - soo yes I personally think the lens-system is future-proof for a good bit more than 3 years.  The box itself, I feel that once we passed 5 megapix in professional cameras the need to replace have been not as high as with my original Nikon D1 which were really just a 2.x megapix camera.(or something like that) I think the "need" is going to slow down a bit as a working professional could work for the next many years with a 7megapix or better camera. If that photographer in fact do is a different question.. Personally I feel that the lenses are significantly more important than the body itself, particularly because I am no longer paying for film or processing, which was a significantly larger figure than purchasing a new Digilux 3 once a year. so to me the investment in lenses is more important than the actual body. I think and hope the lenses will continue to be current for a long time.  Bo  My Leica scratch page - random thoughts , pictures and such. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lode Posted March 12, 2007 Share #11 Â Posted March 12, 2007 A logical step for the 4/3 system could be a foveon sensor. It would compensate the smaller surface (3 times more photo sites on the same surface). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted March 12, 2007 Share #12 Â Posted March 12, 2007 I suspect the only thing that is future-proof these days is the future itself. Â As far as four-thirds system cameras go I think they'll be around for a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugby Posted March 12, 2007 Share #13  Posted March 12, 2007 Analysts would agree that today, the "Leica Camera" business would not be alive if it attempted to survive solely on M and R business. The Leica Board, clearly identified their path to survival was based upon the symbiotic relationship with a mega-rich Japanese Enterprise, with massive access to a hungry consumer base.  Hence the Dlux, Clux and Digilux strategic product sets, whilst maintaining ongoing development of M/R   The transition from Film to Digital for SLR manufacturers is/was a great opportunity to either  a) assist all existing SLR lens owners and migrate them across to a digital body, Canon, Contax, Leica-R, Minolta, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, and Sigma all did this.  or in an ideal marketing world... Wipe the slate clean.... and introduce a new image format.....4/3 and generate a whole new market, and entice old customers to ditch their legacy lenses,.... and also appeal to the Nextgen serious shooters to buy into 4/3  Olympus and now PanaLeica have seen this opportunity for the market that their products appeal to.  Olympus and PanaLeica now have a symbiotic relationship, and thankfully both have IQ lenses that users and other vendor's aspire to......which will ensure the longivity of both companies.  As the current Nextgeners photography experience matures...... Leica needed to capture all those D-lux/C-Lux aspirants. and lead them to.. a D2, and now D3 which opens the SLR doors for this market segment, and at the same time offers a cross-over point for the non-Leica SLR market place.  It's a lot easier to sell a stack of sleek new-tech AF/OIS D3's @$2.5K, than it is to sell legacy manual R-glass on a R10 for $5K  Clearly Leica re-entered the broader SLR market for these reasons.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted March 12, 2007 Share #14  Posted March 12, 2007 I understand your thoughts on this, but there is no risk of 4/3 falling over from here I think. To the contrary, 4/3 is just about the most exciting format in dSLRs there is this year. With Olympus shifting from Kodak to Panasonic sensor technology, and the new TruePic engine, that key side of 4/3 has never looked stronger. Add to that Panasonic will introduce dSLR #2 this year, will that mean another Leica ?  In this term then new sensors Kodak ditched for Panasonic nMOS lower noise by virtue of new sensors and TruePic engine 4 more dSLRs from Olympus/Panasonic something in the order of 10 additional lenses from Olympus/Leica/Sigma  Is there a busier format? The mix of various manufacturers is what makes the format more interesting, also more complex. That said, you need to be perverse enough to cherry pick your requirements within 4/3. I think in the future, 4/3 will have the largest and grandest selection of kit among any system.  As to foveon, and the notorious foveon threads that have been cast about at dpreview forum. I dont think there is a lot in it. But for this interesting decision, the foveon sensor in the new DP1 is 20.7 x 13.8mm , in difference to the 4/3 sensor at 18 x13.5, 'interestingly' close, apparent only by the DP1 being 3x2 frame. Makes you wonder a bit that... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobold Posted March 12, 2007 Share #15  Posted March 12, 2007 There's no effective 'future proofing' and there probably never was. It was just that the rate of change gave that impression.  Camera bodies are the disposable parts of the equation these days. The lenses are effectively (with respect to the length of a working life) the future proof part.  Oly lenses and the Leica 4/3rds lenses look really really good. I am not concerned too much which body they might go on, Just 2¢'s worth (in a world where there are no cents any more—Australia). cheers to all, KL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
notx Posted March 12, 2007 Share #16 Â Posted March 12, 2007 Well, you currently have (past, present and future), eleven bodies to chose from (E-1, EP-1, E-300, E-330, E-400, E-410, E-500, E-510, L1, Digilux 3, and unnamed PanLeica). You also have 31 lenses. Honestly, that is a heck of a lot of support for the short period the line has really been out. Â I bought into it with the E-1. Happy with my choice actually:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enrique Santa Posted March 12, 2007 Share #17  Posted March 12, 2007 I recently bought an Oly E400, with the standard kit lens. I know there isn´t a pro cam, but for some amateurs like me me is perfect. I think that the main reason to choose 4/3 format is size and weight, and a compromise between this factor and quality/noise. Oly is focused clearly in this compromise -E400,E410,E510, and his recently announced new pro-model-. On what is focused Pana-Leica 4/3 devlopment?. In pro market?.  I´m going to buy the 11-22 lens from Oly at 650$ in Adorama -an incredible lens-. How much may we expect, from the same lens made by Pana-Leica 2.500$, 3.000$, 4.000$?.  I hope Leica must be able to develop his own 4/3 line, including a prosumer lens&bodies line, just the same that other companies, in another case thousands of fans/amateurs will be out of play by the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted March 12, 2007 Share #18  Posted March 12, 2007 -. On what is focused Pana-Leica 4/3 devlopment?. In pro market?. I´m going to buy the 11-22 lens from Oly at 650$ in Adorama -an incredible lens-. How much may we expect, from the same lens made by Pana-Leica 2.500$, 3.000$, 4.000$?.  Panasonic are indeed planning to release another 4/3 dSLR later this year, this will be a low-end camera. The next one should be more a consumer type.  " Kitao said in an interview here at the Photo Marketing Association trade show. The company's goal is to release the camera this year, he said."  Panasonic plans lower-end SLR camera | CNET News.com  enjoy the 11-22mm, its a great lens Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enrique Santa Posted March 12, 2007 Share #19 Â Posted March 12, 2007 Thank you for the link Rob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
karman Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share #20 Â Posted March 12, 2007 Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. Just a quick clarification on what I meant by " futureproof". With SLR the bulk of one's investment is in the lenses. After all, you don't buy an SLR and then only 1 or 2 lenses. When I commit myself to the 4/3 system, I expect/hope to use it for say the next 10 years. I believe in the lens quality. I am not so sure about the future roadmap of Leica D-lenses. And I have no insight into whether noise levels in the 4/3 sensor will get lower when a new body/sensor is introduced. Â To me that last point is the main uncertainty in the 4/3 system (and will determine low light applicability of it). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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