mjh Posted August 10, 2012 Share #181 Posted August 10, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I may be wrong but I think the Nikon 1's series have CMOS sensors. Yep, CMOS sensors with a rolling shutter. The point is that there is still no camera with a CMOS sensor implementing a global (i.e. not rolling) electronic shutter. Electronic shutters aren’t exactly cutting-edge technology; these have been available for a long time, using CCD or CMOS technology. The elusive grail is a CMOS sensor implementing a global shutter (without compromising image quality). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 10, 2012 Posted August 10, 2012 Hi mjh, Take a look here M10 with Live View - I'm wrong to yawn about this ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted August 10, 2012 Share #182 Posted August 10, 2012 Thanks but I'm trying to understand what kinds of photos would show these rolling shutter artifacts as I am not familiar with them. (Other than in video.) Video or still images, rolling shutter artefacts are the same. Basically, everything moving gets distorted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 10, 2012 Share #183 Posted August 10, 2012 Thanks but I'm trying to understand what kinds of photos would show these rolling shutter artifacts as I am not familiar with them. (Other than in video.) Samples: Rolling shutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Funny Video - Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 10, 2012 Share #184 Posted August 10, 2012 Video or still images, rolling shutter artefacts are the same. Basically, everything moving gets distorted. Thanks I wasn't sure if the problems were the same on still photos with the newest cameras as in video examples that I have seen. And this is similar to early slow focal plane shutters. I figured it wouldn't be much of an issue on static or slowly moving subjects. Having both shutter methods seems to make sense on some cameras for now. This whole thread makes me wonder what direction Leica will eventually go with the M system... thoroughly modernize it with the latest technology over time or keep it about the same as it is with small improvements along the way. After all, at some point small inexpensive mirrorless, silent and vibration free cameras with good EVFs that can shoot at very high speeds and accurately track focus will be a pretty attractive way for many people to shoot. The number of people who will want to buck this may be limited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 10, 2012 Share #185 Posted August 10, 2012 The number of people who will want to buck this may be limited. So may the number of people willing and able to pay Leica's prices...which could work for or against Leica depending on the overlap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 10, 2012 Share #186 Posted August 10, 2012 So may the number of people willing and able to pay Leica's prices...which could work for or against Leica depending on the overlap. Yes I agree but was considering that too when I used the word "inexpensive." People still buy expensive watches, fountain pens, etc. However I am not sure that this follows with cameras since it was a technological move to the digital M and other models that probably re-invigorated the brand and kept the company from bankruptcy. Few are going to buy the S or X models if they are seriously outclassed by other cameras. The M is a bit more unique and has established itself as an icon so it may break this pattern. But that didn't work when photographers moved to digital and this segment may already be pretty well served by the M9. (The same reason users of older Ms didn't necessarily buy an M7.) In any case I'm convinced Leica will make a live view/EVF M as soon as they are able to as it gives them opportunities to sell a lot more stuff to current and new users. And it won't require very many changes beyond what they would need in a new model with or without live view... assuming they are going to CMOS and updated electronics. In other ways the M may stay relatively behind technologically as it will be more logical to develop a new system for AF and other features. A cheaper smaller EVIL system seems likely to expand their brand and this is where camera development will naturally go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 10, 2012 Share #187 Posted August 10, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Few are going to buy the S or X models if they are seriously outclassed by other cameras. The M is a bit more unique and has established itself as an icon so it may break this pattern. The M is very unique, but all that makes it so is that it's a full-frame accepting M-mount lenses, and has an opto-mechanical rangefinder. If some other manufacturer puts a full-frame sensor into a mirrorless body with live-view/EVF that can be used with M lenses; and/or if Leica at some point discontinues the opto-mechanical rangefinder, then all that will be left to entice buyers is the red-dot and high price. Whether that's enough to keep the company in the black remains to conjecture. this segment may already be pretty well served by the M9. (The same reason users of older Ms didn't necessarily buy an M7.) Ah but one can still get a ~60 yr old film M repaired, in most cases for less than its terminal value, and with a modern lens and modern film it is capable of producing images indistinguishable from an M7. It remains to be seen how long the M9 will be repairable, or even if it is, worth enough to make the repair sensible. Or for that matter, how long one will be able to buy new batteries for it when the firmware dictates it. In any case I'm convinced Leica will make a live view/EVF M as soon as they are able to as it gives them opportunities to sell a lot more stuff to current and new users. I'm sure you're right...as long as they keep the rangefinder, in which case the camera will still be exclusive in more than just price, and thus remain justifiable in the minds of buyers other than those for whom price exclusivity is the only criterion. A cheaper smaller EVIL system seems likely to expand their brand and this is where camera development will naturally go. That would be great, as it would give them a platform to satisfy the tech geeks while concentrating on bringing the flagship M for serious photographers up to date, not merely by adding gimmicks like live-view and EVF, but in important ways such as sensors that don't spontaneously crack, a modicum of weather sealing, eliminating infuriating SD-card issues, and adding a simple menu-driven pixel-mapping utility like the now-ancient Epson R-D1 had that was easy and effective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblutter Posted August 11, 2012 Share #188 Posted August 11, 2012 No I didn't read all 10 pages on this thread... Live view in an M10 would do 2 things for me: 1. More accurate focusing with M9 / Visoflex (you can look up my threads on this to see what lengths I sent to calibrate a Viso III, still not absolutely perfect.) 2. Composing with lenses 28mm and wider (with glasses) Sidebar: I got in the new impressive Sony RX-100 - ladies and gentlemen, technology marches forward in this area. Its ok for Leica to evolve with it. Yes I love the M9. Expanding its capabilities is not heresy, the lenses are not going away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 12, 2012 Share #189 Posted August 12, 2012 No I didn't read all 10 pages on this thread... Live view in an M10 would do 2 things for me: 1. More accurate focusing with M9 / Visoflex (you can look up my threads on this to see what lengths I sent to calibrate a Viso III, still not absolutely perfect.) 2. Composing with lenses 28mm and wider (with glasses) ?? I have three Visoflex IIIs (don't ask ) and they all focus dead-nuts-on with my M9. I also wear glasses and have no trouble at all composing with 28mm and wider. I'm pretty confident I'm not the only one. I don't dispute that live-view can facilitate composition by absolving the user of the need to develop experence and use his imagination to estimate accurate framing and DoF. But that has always been true of an SLR vs the Leica, and yet serious photographers have continued to use the M system. Expanding its capabilities is not heresy, the lenses are not going away. I get that for a certain subgroup, the lenses are all that matters. I'm not convinced that is the majority viewpoint however. So live-view is fine, as long as it doesn't assert itself front-and-center, and hopefully the rangefinder is not going away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 12, 2012 Share #190 Posted August 12, 2012 A Visoflex can be very accurate, but may have to be adjusted, which is no problem for a knowledgeable technician. I just got an as-new one and sent it to Will to CLA. It was spot-on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelRabern Posted August 12, 2012 Share #191 Posted August 12, 2012 Has there been any thought to the idea there maybe be live view (and/or evf) with coinciding focus (second sensor) with any future M? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted August 12, 2012 Share #192 Posted August 12, 2012 Prediction about new threads if Live View is implemented - comparison threads - Live View colours/screen/screen size/ screen brightnes/angle of view/ [insert comparable property] isn't as good as [insert other camera with live view]. Prediction about new threads if EVF is available - comparison threads - Live View colours/screen/angle of view/etc./[insert comparable property] isn't as good as [insert other camera with live view]. Prediction about new threads if EVF is available - complaints threads - rangefinder is in the way should be dispensed with - EVF is too expensive - etc. Threads if neither are implemented - much the same as they are - we can't take good photos with old technology and must have [insert innovation/gadget]. Do you think I'm joking:eek:? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 12, 2012 Share #193 Posted August 12, 2012 Make that post a sticky... Regards, Bill Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 12, 2012 Share #194 Posted August 12, 2012 I love the IQ of my M9, and I give Leica their props for implementing full-frame digital into the nearly-60-yr-old M body concept as well as they have. That said, perhaps due exactly to the complexity of the foregoing feat of reverse engineering and perhaps not, high-ISO was behind the curve from the beginning, red-edge and IR are not 100% solved, the buffer is small, there are issues with SD card compatibility which in being solved slowed down the already weak write speed, the shutter actuation cycle is actually more audible than that of many mirrored DSLRs, lens-to-flange aside the camera has virtually no weather sealing elsewhere, simple remapping of hot/dead pixels necessitates sending the camera in for service, the sensors are still cracking even in recent M9P editions...there's more but I think that's enough to make my point: When I hear talk of the M10 having even more technological features, it scares me a little. And pointing out how well those technologies work in other brands isn't all that reassuring. Let me reiterate: I love the IQ of my M9, and I give Leica their props for implementing full-frame digital into the nearly-60-yr-old M body concept as well as they have. But for me to buy the M10 it will need to resolve the M9's "endearing features", not merely add a few fashionable gadgets. If the M10 has live-view and EVF and an optional cappucino maker, great. But it had sure better be heavier on the substance than the fluff if they expect me to fork over ten grand for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 12, 2012 Share #195 Posted August 12, 2012 A Visoflex can be very accurate, but may have to be adjusted, which is no problem for a knowledgeable technician. I just got an as-new one and sent it to Will to CLA. It was spot-on. 99 times out of 100 it's the GG that needs adjustment, and many times it's because some not-knowledgeable person has taken the screen out to clean or replace it. It's doable as a DIY if you have patience. I've installed aftermarket focusing screens in several Hassy 500C and Pentax 67 bodies over the years, and the concept is the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 12, 2012 Share #196 Posted August 12, 2012 Oh yes, I have had various other screens. DIY. In the end I prefer the original one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted August 13, 2012 Share #197 Posted August 13, 2012 Do you think I'm joking:eek:? No. But in this thread there are references made to the Visoflex. The Visoflex is no regular product, since long. A system camera, with which one needs the second hand market? No. But, if you better buy something like an extra eyepiece to use a 135mm, the system has passed a limit. The 135mm is a normal lens out of the catalogue. The viewfinder of the M3 was basically ok, but I remember a version of the 135mm with specs too. No. But - in my opinion - the need of external optical viewfinders for the wide angles under 28mm should be not necessary. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 13, 2012 Share #198 Posted August 13, 2012 Imo you better not buy an extra eyepiece to use an 135... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottley1 Posted August 13, 2012 Share #199 Posted August 13, 2012 "whether you use them or not" - Surely thats the point of Leica, a no-nonsence imaging tool without the pointless bells and whistles? How many of us use all the capabilities of modern computers? We just pay fro stuff we don't use! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted August 13, 2012 Share #200 Posted August 13, 2012 Presage... "Hi, this is my first post. I think there is something wrong with the live view on my new M10. I can't figure out why my RF is in focus but, the 10x live view image is still blurry?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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