Summarit v Xenon

[Scarlet]

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I wish to add as wide-aperture as possible - f/2 or wider - a pre-war lens to my II.

 

It would seem the Xenon, the Summar and the Summitar are the options, or?

 

Is it true, as the Wiki seems to say, that the minimum aperture of the Xenon is f/9? That would be a bit limiting.

 

How are these lenses image quality-wise compared to each other?

 

I have a postwar 1950 Summitar. Should I still consider a pre-war version?

 

And how would these pre-war lenses compare with the post-war Summarit?

 

/S

[luigi bertolotti]

Yes, Xenon and Summarit share the same lens design (not a Leitz design - originated in England, Taylor-Hobson - licensed to Schneider - sublicensed to Leitz) , and the Xenon, indeed, closes up to f9; BUT, having one or the other is quite different : Xenon, quickly said, is more a collectible than a user item, so you find two different kind of lenses on the marketplace :

- Very Good - Excellent Xenons : very scarce, very costly

- Used Xenons with many kinds of little defects : scratches, hazing, separation, unsmooth focus movement, diaphragm ring loose : not rare and anyway not cheap.

 

And both of them are not exceptional in image quality : remember , it was at its times a superfast lens, designed for black & white film.

 

Summarit not only is coated, but glass type evolved and, in general, is a more "solid" item : good items are neither scarce nor too costly, and is still a very enjoyable lens which can be really used wide open and is comparable to Elmar at comparable apertures (it closes to 16) : it was the basis, too, of the first Summilux.

If you plan to use, Summarit is a very fine choice : I regularly use my one even on M8; pay attention that it had two versions of front ring, which means different kind of filters (bayonet firstly, then screw) , also, its original hood (XOONS) is not such an easy find (bit is very fine).

 

Of course... Summarit is postwar by definition (intro 1949), so if "prewar" is your priority, find a honest Xenon... or wait with patience to find a perfect one, if you aren't in hurry and don't worry to spend money: it will keep its value... is definitely a collectible that has a place of its own in Leica's history (it has some variants... the "three rings" are even rarer, so as the "Taylor-Hobson" engraved items).

[Scarlet]

Thank you Luigi. I edited my post while you were writing. My apologies for this. I realised I also wanted to know about the Summar and pre-war Summitar.

 

In particular the Summar seems to be an interesting lens colour-rendition-wise, or?

[luigi bertolotti]

Thank you Luigi. I edited my post while you were writing. My apologies for this. I realised I also wanted to know about the Summar and pre-war Summitar.

 

In particular the Summar seems to be an interesting lens colour-rendition-wise, or?

 

I can't say by personal experience : my Summar (bought dirty cheap) is hazed and has a very very low contrast (worst than my Hektor, which is even older) : it is also famous for the "softness" of front glass - uneven to find an unscratched item (but someone has found labs that can repolish or even replace it). Summitar is in the class of Summarit - usable, appreciable - and more common (my one is postwar and coated, though having the old f scale to 12,5, probably was coated aftersale)

[brianv]

The Summitar was specifically designed with color film in mind, the diameter of the front element was increased to reduce vignetting. Literature of the day described the Summitar as having a front element that might look like it was for an F1.6 lens, but was designed to prevent the vignetting that occurred when using the Summar with color film. Of course color film was ISO 10 and had much less latitude than modern film.

 

The "Leica Manual" by Morgan and Lester would be a good resource for you, I have the 1942 and 1951 editions in print. I've also downloded them in PDF.

 

Found the Site: Free Download of the Leica Manual by Morgan and Lester. Two Early Editions, pre-war. These are before the 1939 Summitar, the 1942 edition covers it. Technically, the Summitar is a wartime lens as Germany was at war in 1939.

 

http://archive.org/details/leicamanualamanu028253mbp

 

http://archive.org/details/leicamanual000737mbp

[brianv]

Just to add- I find my Summar quite usable, had two of them. Sold one with a nearly perfect front element at a premium, a drive for the M9m.

 

I kept my copy with cleaning marks on the front element. At F2- "dreamy", at F4- just fine with color. Prices have gone way up, used to find a good copy for under $100- up to 3 years ago.

 

The Sonnar 5cm f2 of the 1930s is higher contrast, and Sonnar 5cm F1.5 was just amazing. Some Leica users had those lenses custom converted for use on their cameras. Zeiss even made a few prototypes in 1934, I've used one of them. I've also had the chance to examine and repair a few of the original conversions. I ended up converting several pre-war Sonnars to Leica mount, tend to use them more that the Summar and Summarit. Zeiss started hard coating their lenses in 1936.

 

1934 Sonnar 5cm F2

 

http://www.mu-43.com/gallery/g1805-uncoated-sonnar-5cm-f2-in-leica-mount.html

 

~1936 Summar 5cm f2

 

http://www.seriouscompacts.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=675

 

1938 Sonnar 5cm F1.5, converted to Leica:

 

http://www.mu-43.com/gallery/g1911-carl-zeiss-jena-5cm-f1-5-converted-to-leica-mount-2c-198x.html

 

The F1.5 Sonnar used a glass that was much more durable than the soft glass used in the Summar and F2 Sonnar. Finding a clean one is the rule, not the exception. "Bloom" is a natural tarnish that glass gets as it ages, and it acts like a lens coating. A case of a 75 year old lens being better than new.

[brianv]

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This is with the Summar, at F2, on the Leica IIIa.

 

nikki_Summar_f2 by anachronist1, on Flickr

 

Modern color film.

[Scarlet]

Thank you very much for this wealth of information.

 

I really like how the Summar rendered the colours on that photo. Difficult to describe but quite distinctly different from what I have seen before. It almost looks like colourised black and white Hollywood movies. I guess the Zeiss lenses would have been constrastier but I'm after the soft look.

[brianv]

Thank you very much for this wealth of information.

 

I really like how the Summar rendered the colours on that photo. Difficult to describe but quite distinctly different from what I have seen before.

 

Your are are very welcome.

 

I like to think of the Summar as "Putting a Kodachrome filter on your camera". The original Kodachrome film, ASA 10, had these soft colors.

[Scarlet]

I like to think of the Summar as "Putting a Kodachrome filter on your camera".

 

From the photos I've seen at Flickr etc this is a very good description!

[farnz]

I wish to add as wide-aperture as possible - f/2 or wider - a pre-war lens to my II. ...

If you want the wide aperture for a particular purpose and don't mind the lens not being produced by Leitz or Leica then there are of course more options for a fast, normal lens in Leica thread mount:

Canon 50 f/1.2

Nippon Kogaku 50 f/1.4

Zeiss Sonnar 50 f/1.5

Voigtlander Nokton 50 f/1.5

Zunow 50 f/1.1 (£££!).

 

Or if telephoto is acceptable there's the Summar 75mm f/0.85.

 

Pete.