Serious Question About Why We Would Want An EVF On The M10

[timberline12k]

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1. Lag time. EVFs have a lag time - what you are seeing is running a fraction of a second behind reality. In my review of the Digilux 2 - The Leica Digilux 2 - a review - photo.net - I noted how much the subject had moved beyond the "firing point" when I used the EVF versus looking at the subject directly. EVF had a lag of about 1/12th of a second (80 ms).

 

In a shuttered camera (e.g. SLRs and Leica Ms), the lag is longer - the shutter, open for live-view, must close and then open again for the actual exposure. It isn't a huge deal (it's how Hasselblads have worked for 60 years) but it is not neglible.

 

2. Focusing ability - rangefinder cameras excel at focusing wide lenses with lots of DoF, since you are not trying to focus past the DoF, but simply aligning two images in the rangefinder. With an RF and a 21, you just snap two sharp images together. With an EVF, you are fiddling the lens back and forth to find the sharpest image.

 

Note that Leica lenses, unlike SLR lenses, are always stopped down. So focusing a 21 f/3.4 @ f/8, you are focusing @ f/8.

 

2a. In fact the Leica RF is much faster to focus with a 21 than an EVF - EVEN with the time lag of shifting my eye to the external viewfinder. I use a 21 Leica SLR lens on my Canon 5D for video - but only use the live view for framing. Focusing is done the "Hollywood" way - setting distance on the focus scale on the lens. 0.5 seconds vs. 3-5 seconds to focus with the live-view.

 

2b. EVFs are generally tiny. To me, they always look like those pix in the E**y ads down below here - like looking through binoculars the wrong way round. Makes manual focusing even tougher. Live-view on the back is a bit better, especially with an add-on magnifier. But then you don't have a compact reportage Leica, you have a view camera.

 

3. Compromises to other characteristics. Previously I posted a link to the effects on image noise from having a sensor "on" all the time, as required by live view. See post 15 in this thread. Live view requires a CMOS sensor, and thus far I have be underwhelmed by the pattern noise (digital-looking screen texture) produced by every CMOS sensor image I have seen, sooner or later.

 

Maybe the M10 will have a CMOS sensor that is a generational leap ahead of what I've seen so far - in practice, not just theory. Then again, maybe it won't.

 

4. Power drain - electronic viewing draws a lot of power. Using live-view, my Canon 5D runs through batteries about 3x as fast as using the traditional ground-glass/mirror eyepiece. With "old-fashioned" viewing, the 5D (and an M10) don't even have to be "on" to view and set up a shot.

 

5. Aesthetics - will you really happy using a TV image to view a picture, vs. simply looking at reality through a window? Although that may actually be an argument FOR video in the M10 - since I'd be able to use the traditional glass finders even for video (allowing for the cropping difference between 2:3 and 16:9)

 

Now - there are no doubt also arguments FOR using an EVF with a 21. But I'm a photojournalist, so my cameras, first and foremost, have to be able to take pix like this: Focus on the handshake, timing on the handshake, right now! (Leica M6, external viewfinder, 21mm lens). A camera or a viewing system that can't handle that is fated for the dumpster, no matter what other benefits they offer.

Andy,

 

Thanks for the insight. I used an X100 for a year and normally opted for the OVF instead of the EVF, although when shooting macro or using a CPL it was nice to have the EVF option. Manual focus on the X100 is not easy, so I made the decision to try a rangefinder. I’ve sold the X100 and several DSLR lenses to help fund my transition. My favorite lens on the D700 has been a manual focus Zeiss 35/1.4, but it does not focus as fast as I think a rangefinder would. Using an M9 or M10 seems like the next logical step.

 

Using the rangefinder mechanism is an easy decision for a 35mm or 50mm focal length, but going wider (21mm) or longer (90mm) seems to raise new issues. I was going to use the 35mm and 50mm first to become familiar with a rangefinder, but 21/3.4 lenses became available on the B&H website, so I ordered one last night. That is why I started to question advantages and disadvantages of external viewfinders and if an EVF would be a viable option.

 

I may wait until September to see what options are available. In the mean time I will wait for my 35mm and 50mm to be delivered. Your comments are spot on, but I really need to gain some experience on an M9 or M10 to better understand the pros and cons.

[AlanG]

Here is a pretty serious use for live view technology.

 

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[JRS74]

For someone who shoots exclusively with an M -- okay, occasionally I pull out an X1 -- can someone explain what the advantage to us would be if the M10 has an EVF and live view? It's not meant to be a trick question, and I know there are strong feelings about this. But having never used an EVF, but genuinely loving the rangefinder focusing which I've mastered through practice, I am sincerely wanting to know: should I be rooting for an EVF in the M10?

As someone who has just got their 240, I find the EVF makes a nice change if you want to be discreet but up close. I recently did a walk round Borough Market in London using the EVF - I like using it upright, me looking down onto the camera

 

it allows you to find a spot you like, look down the EVF and wait for moments to happen. For me, it noticeable how little attention this gets from people you are shooting. Genuinely a real difference to pointing a camera in people's faces.

 

Just a personal opinion but hope this helps...

[c.poulton]

Sounds like exactly the same situation when I'm using my Yashica Mat TLR - people mostly ignore you, probably not realising that you are actually photographing them, since:

 

a) Your not holding the camera at arms length and staring into the back of it,

Your not holding a massive black hole of a lens and body emblazoned with canikon logos at them,

c) Your not holding at arms length a mobile phone,

d) Your not holding a huge flat tablet in front of your face...

 

As someone who has just got their 240, I find the EVF makes a nice change if you want to be discreet but up close. I recently did a walk round Borough Market in London using the EVF - I like using it upright, me looking down onto the camera

 

it allows you to find a spot you like, look down the EVF and wait for moments to happen. For me, it noticeable how little attention this gets from people you are shooting. Genuinely a real difference to pointing a camera in people's faces.

 

Just a personal opinion but hope this helps...

[lct]

Will remind me of the Lomo of my youth (was called Lubitel then) but this is certainly one of the reasons why i've ordered the M240.

[thighslapper]

As someone who has just got their 240, I find the EVF makes a nice change if you want to be discreet but up close. I recently did a walk round Borough Market in London using the EVF - I like using it upright, me looking down onto the camera

 

it allows you to find a spot you like, look down the EVF and wait for moments to happen. For me, it noticeable how little attention this gets from people you are shooting. Genuinely a real difference to pointing a camera in people's faces.

 

Just a personal opinion but hope this helps...

 

Yes...... I mentioned this when I got mine last month ...... and was accused of being some sort of semi perverted snooper......

[dant]

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I don't know about the M, but the Fuji X Pro 1 EVF is garbage. I hate it when trying to focus a lens. But the Fuji focus by wire is terrible too. I wanted a Leica for simplcity. If I want complexity I would stick with the Fuji.

 

I have lots of cams MF down to M43, so am not hurting in any one area. I want the Leica for rangefinder shooting and that is it. Not trying to turn it into a dslr.

 

If your familar with the RD1, that was what I'm trying to replace. If the RD1 had a 24 FF sensor I most likely would not buy the Leica. I still shoot with the RD1 and its puny 6mp sensor.