Suggestions for intuitive, simple post production?

[bull40]

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Howdy, friends.

I am a 25+ year Leica film shooter. I've spent the past nearly five years trying to acclimate myself to shooting digital with Nikon DSLRs and that's just not working for me. I'm heading back to film, which is second nature for me, but I don't want to leave digital as a failure. I'd like to have the option of shooting both in the M system, which would take care of the equipment side of the equation.

Here's the question; is there a program that will give me simple processing of the basic necessities with optimal results that is logical and understandable. PS and Elements just completely throws me. Although I am normally quite computer literate and tech savvy, there is a major interface block between me and PS. Is there something available that is simple, clear, concise, and logical that I (or any idiot) can follow. Maybe it is that I'm so completely indoctrinated in film and wet darkroom theory and practice, that that mentality overrules my capacity to grasp the digital work flow. I don't know, but I just can't accept failure, nor can I believe that there is not a solution for me in the marketplace. So, maybe a few of you have had similar troubles, but discovered your "ah ha!" moment. If so, please share. I so want to win this battle!

[pico]

[...] there is a major interface block between me and PS. Is there something available that is simple, clear, concise, and logical that I (or any idiot) can follow. Maybe it is that I'm so completely indoctrinated in film and wet darkroom theory and practice, that that mentality overrules my capacity to grasp the digital work flow. [...]

 

I think I understand because I have the same impression of LightRoom, but am adept using Photoshop. If you already have Photoshop 5 or 6 you might enjoy using some pre-made scripts or actions. Many are as simple as drag-and-drop, others as simple as choosing a single menu item. Alternately you might catch onto Photoshop if we describe how one performs some darkroom equivalent procedure. For example, 'adjust curves' could be described as making your own B&W film or paper contrast-response curve.

 

So, do you already own Photoshop 5 or 6?

[wda]

John, I doubt there is a quick fix to your problem. When I first looked at Photoshop and later Lightroom, I thought there was no way I could work with such complex software. Gradually I embarked on a steady slow learning curve, often using spare evening time to explore and master new techniques. On-line videos can be very helpful and inspirational. Try the adobe site and Google for others. Quite a lot seem to be deposited on YouTube.

[250swb]

If you are a 25 year + film shooter I assume you have used a darkroom, in which case I don't understand why you can't get to grips with Photoshop as it gives you all your darkroom techniques in a digital package. You don't need to understand a fraction of what Photoshop can do to use it, nobody uses all of Photoshop.

 

But again assuming you have Photoshop (in order to know you don't like it), then try Nik Software's Silver Efex Pro for B&W work or Color Efex Pro for colour work (and limited B&W). Both make sense as Photoshop plugins, and both offer easy to understand post processing that would take hours and considerable skill to emulate in Photoshop alone.

 

Steve

[bull40]

Honestly, friends, I only own PS Elements 9, but have tried working on a friend's older full PS. I didnt see that i would need full PS for the basic corrections that I wanted to do. But, to my mind, it just makes no sense. Simillar functions operate completely differently. There just doesn't seem to be any cohesion in procedure. It feels to me that as they've added new features, they've never updated or simplified the older processes to the new standard. I have pulled many tutorials from both Adobe and YouTube to get me through, but it just makes for a miserable experience for me. That, and I would expect that a program of it's reputation and predominance would be better thought out. It just seems completely haphazard and pieced together. If that's just the way it's going to be, that's fine. I'm rebuilding my traditional wet darkroom and am very excited about that. It just seems like someone could do a much better job of writing a software with a smooth, logical flow. I think it's the computer graphics and design background that began PS that moved it in that direction. Would have been nice to have had analog photographers and lab techs overseeing the workflow and process. ;-)

[farnz]

John,

 

Scott Kelby's "7-Point System for Adobe Photoshop" draws back the curtain that covers the world of PS from us all. It's a light and easy book to read with good examples that leads you through post-processing with PS quickly and effortlessly. Despite being reasonably software savvy I too struggled with even the simplest of things in PS at first because it's not intuitive to the newcomer but the nice Mr Kelby changes all that.

 

Pete.

[bull40]

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Pete and others,

Thanks for your input and advice. I will give a look at Mr Kelby's book, maybe he'll be able to give me that "ah ha moment." It's so completely humbling and frustrating, I've never failed so miserably at anything I've attempted before. Thanks, again!

[Jeff S]

Some prefer Photoshop; some prefer Lightroom. I use both, but prefer the latter for easier and more intuitive use. (For others, the situation is reversed.).

 

I suggest you give Lightroom a try. Here are some simple video tutorials to give you some insight into the system, which may help you determine if you might get along. (Free videos also exist for Photoshop.)

 

If you prefer books to videos, both Martin Evening and Scott Kelby have good reference books for LR 4.

 

Jeff

[bull40]

Thanks, Jeff. I'll look into those, too. Is Aperture comparable, functionality wise? What I've read of it sounds like it makes sense to me, but I don't want to have to change systems to try it and end up not liking it. If it does what I need, in a way that makes sense to me, I'd have no problems moving over to Mac, though.

[LeicaBraz]

Aperture: probably not as complete as LR4 and surely not Photoshop, but it works quite well and is very intuitive and simple.

[martha]

John:

 

I feel your pain....I too used film for far too many years than I would like to admit and I gradually switched over to digital over the years. PS (even the basic Elements) is not presented to my mind in a logical, intuitive way. It was not until I was introduced to Lightroom three or so years ago that I finally had an "aha" moment.

 

I started using Lightroom by just going down the right hand column of things to do to adjust. If my image did not need a particular tweaking, I just jumped down to the next item. After some practice, I can finally say with some surety that I am beginning to understand digital. At this point, I even go over to PS Elements to do some further tweaking and adjusting.

 

I have come to understand that post production vehicles work differently with different mindsets. Keep experimenting with the options out there and you will at some point come to an understanding.

 

I would encourage you not to totally abandon digital. It does has its benefits over film. And, I would encourage you to continue with film as well, if using that medium is satisfying to you.

 

Hang in there...there are no easy solutions I am sorry to say.

[Jeff S]

Thanks, Jeff. I'll look into those, too. Is Aperture comparable, functionality wise? What I've read of it sounds like it makes sense to me, but I don't want to have to change systems to try it and end up not liking it. If it does what I need, in a way that makes sense to me, I'd have no problems moving over to Mac, though.

 

I've never used Aperture. I like PS and LR, so no reason to find out.

 

Mac vs PC...that's a whole different discussion. FWIW, I use Mac...with LR, that is.

 

Jeff

[Avatar]

If possible, really for you, I believe the best possible thing would be for someone to show you/teach how to use whatever software you choose. You will save lots of time and I think for some people really the only way to learn..

[1JB]

Without a doubt get Color Efex Pro for CS5. Many, many filters, sliders and control points, you can even paint the effects where you want them. Be sure to have a powerful computer. It is very intuitive and easy to use. I use CS5 really only to open my dng files and crop. I use the NIK sharpening program as well as Silver Efex Pro. I just don't like the CS5 layers approach and have been using PS since the mid 90s. I bought the books and just couldn't remember how to do each thing when I wanted to. Color Efex Pro by NIK is a breeze to use. Want to lighten some dark faces or eyes - open darken/lighten, click a control point on the dark area, slide the circle to make it smaller or larger, slide the sliders to darken or lighten press a button to view before and after effects and accept the changes. Works the same way for every filter.

[algrove]

John- We are both in a similar state.

 

As a suggestion I downloaded Michael Reichamnn's and Jeff Schewe's from "Camera to Print & Screen" video tutorial for $60. It is on Luminous-Landscape.com. Both are very accomplished at LR, PS and all the other stuff, but are our age (or at least my age with their gray hair and all). They also have "Intro to LR" and a new LR4 video tutorial too.

 

I like the one I got since Reichmann likes LR and shows it's benefits while Schewe mostly likes PS and gives his reasons why. Very good back and forth with 40 lessons. I skipped many as I had no current use for them, like scanning, but most are valuable and you can play them over and over.

 

I try to give you a link. You can try an episode before buying too.

 

Camera to Print and Screen

 

Just happened to remember to remind you that this site Luminous Landscape has many free tutorials on all aspects of photography.

[bull40]

Howdy,

Thank you all so very much for your kind and thoughtful input and advice. I do appreciate it very much. I'll be looking over your suggestions and I'm sure it'll finally click for me, one path or another. In the meantime, I'll be happily rebuilding my wet darkroom, and shopping for either an M8 or X2 to encourage my digital desire. The possibilities are endless... ;-)

[roguewave]

John,

 

Scott Kelby's "7-Point System for Adobe Photoshop" draws back the curtain that covers the world of PS from us all. It's a light and easy book to read with good examples that leads you through post-processing with PS quickly and effortlessly. Despite being reasonably software savvy I too struggled with even the simplest of things in PS at first because it's not intuitive to the newcomer but the nice Mr Kelby changes all that.

 

Pete.

 

I'm with Pete, 100% on this. It is the same skill set as working in a dark room, except no chemicals. You need to bring some simple discipline, which Kelby supplies. Just do each exercise & chapter in order. You need a tablet/pen (don't use a mouse). If you endeavor, you will be amazed at how transformative the process is. Best of all. you keep your "inner vision" of how you see & want to present the image & have at your disposal the strongest set of tools to bring your vision to fruition. Kelby's book was suggested to me by one of the finest photographers on this Forum and it changed everything for me in regards to making images. I finally had a roadmap to bring my skills leaned in the darkroom to the digital domain. It's worth every penny.

[phoehsl]

I would give Capture One a try - they have a 30 day demo. I find that the most logical interface and work flow and I usually get my results without having to use a lot of tools and mouse clicks. Also the default conversion settings often give me a close to finished picture, which I cannot say for LR or Aperture - I spend a lot more time per picture to get what I want in those other programs and the pictures never have that look that I get from C1. In C1 usually adjusting a little exposure, contrast and white balance is sufficient. It has however all the tools to make complex corrections too. I never use PS for my photos. Another thing I really like about C1 is that it doesn't create GB's of Library's that keep duplicates of your pictures. You don't have to import - you just browse to where ever the raw files are located and if C1 can read them it'll show them in its browser. All conversion settings are stored together with the original raw files and you can take a drive with adjusted images and load it up on another computer with C1 installed and you're ready to go with all settings intact.

 

Regards, Peter

[sanyasi]

I find Lightroom (LR) to be far more intuitive and direct than Photoshop, which I think is Adobe's intent. It is aimed at the photographer who wants all the tools available in a simple interface--the Development Mode--but who is not interested in 10 hours of processing to make his photograph into a set design for a science fiction movie--that admittedly unfairly describes Photoshop's uses, but I think it captures why you find Photoshop difficult--its breadth makes it hard to develop a workflow.

 

I am a big fan of Martin Evenings' book on LR, but it is comprehensive so it will take some time to get through.

 

As a starter, I would recommend David duChemin's book, Vision & Voice: Refining Your Vision in Adobe Lightroom. It can be purchased as an e-book through Amazon. It is relatively short and does not cover every LR tool or nuance. duChemin starts with some theory about vision, workflow, and style. In Chapter 6 he describes the tools available in the LR development module and how most work. Then in Chapter 7 (which is the bulk of the book), he uses 20 of his own photographs as examples of how to process photos in LR. Together, Chapters 6 and 7 comprise about 75% of the book, so you can skip the earlier theory in Chapters 1 through 5 if it is too basic.

 

For each of this photographs, duChemin first shows you the RAW file, then explains what he wants to achieve, and then walks you through the steps to the end product--showing you the photos as they progress,

 

If you go this route, I would suggest importing a bunch of your photographs into LR (not worrying for the time about cataloguing and organizing them--the Library Module). Focus on the development module. If you like LR, you might want to then read Evenings' book and learn how the database aspects of the program work. At some point, you have to master the Library module, otherwise you will run into organizational problems.

 

I respectfully disagree with combining the Nik software programs with Photoshop. I use LR, Photoshop, and the core Nik programs. Based on my experience, using the Nik programs in conjunction with PS will compound your apparent frustration.

 

Good luck

 

Jack Siegel

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[tobey bilek]

PS has a long learning curve. But the basics are easy ,burn dodge brightness, and contrast.

All the rest are plus what can bee done in a darkroom.