Advice on used M4 purchase

[stasber]

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I'm looking around for an M4 and I'd appreicate some help in what dangers to be aware of when looking at examples that have had considerable use and show it; I've no qualms about appearance. It will be used and won't languish in a display cabinet.

 

Is it worth investing in a less expensive, highly used and obviously marked/brassed (or chromed) M4 body? Or better stick to the Exc+ end of the scale?

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[luigi bertolotti]

I'm looking around for an M4 and I'd appreicate some help in what dangers to be aware of when looking at examples that have had considerable use and show it; I've no qualms about appearance. It will be used and won't languish in a display cabinet.

 

Is it worth investing in a less expensive, highly used and obviously marked/brassed (or chromed) M4 body? Or better stick to the Exc+ end of the scale?

 

I have an M4 from '67... just to qualify myself.

 

M4 is an excellent piece of mechanics, and, above all, You can have good maintanance at reasonable cost in MANY labs: so, my advice is this: stay in the half of the quality grading: if it is HEAVILY used, maintanance can deserve some surprises on RF of shutter: you can have perfect repairr, but the cosmetics of the body remains the same... pity.

If it is EXC+ cost will be high for "collector's grade" and you have no warranty you do not need some repair; stay in the half (in Europe, i said B, B-) and anyway budget for a professional review by a good lab: after that, you shall enjoy a fantastic camera.

[stasber]

Luigi, thank you. Regarding looks I really dont mind how it looks on the outside, I want reliable and durable operation on the inside. True to say that the outside is a good indicator of how much 'punishment' the insides have had, plus the re-sale value would be that much lower (but then why would I part with an M4 ).

 

If it is EXC+ cost will be high for "collector's grade" and you have no warranty you do not need some repair; stay in the half (in Europe, i said B, B-) and anyway budget for a professional review by a good lab: after that, you shall enjoy a fantastic camera.

 

Does anyone have any views on what grade of kit would be a 'safe limit'? Does it stop at a B or B- ; if something is described as a C or VG (Very Good) is that too much of a risk in your opinion? Is anything 'prone' to repair once it reaches a certain mileage?

[thomasw_]

I'm looking around for an M4 and I'd appreicate some help in what dangers to be aware of when looking at examples that have had considerable use and show it; I've no qualms about appearance. It will be used and won't languish in a display cabinet.

 

Is it worth investing in a less expensive, highly used and obviously marked/brassed (or chromed) M4 body? Or better stick to the Exc+ end of the scale?

 

if, as you claim, the external signs of wear do not bother you, then go for a user or bargain level m4 (think of keh.com and their BGN rating). it may need a full or partial CLA, but so what? a shelved, mint condition m4 that has been unused will more than likely need a CLA too. the mechanical functionality is not kept prime because the camera is not used; bear that in mind. the savings on a BGN rated m4 vs an EXC+ rated m4 will more than pay for a CLA and a new camera skin from Aki or cameraleather.com...and with plenty left over for film, scotch, lenses...etc.. So go for the BGN/user rated m4s.

 

as an aside some people actually like the aesthetics of a well used M. I say used and not abused, of course. There is something about handling an item that has been taken care of, that has served its owners well, and that has been enjoyed and that is meant to be enjoyed yet further; perhaps it is a link between what has been, what is and is to come. I don't know but there is a definite bond between a man and his good old faithful leica.

 

anyway that is my two pennies....in cdn. funds.

[thomasw_]

fyi:

Here's a nice m4 for a good price->

 

Leica and Rangefinders Forum: FS: M4 Black Chrome

[lmr]

M4... I had mine for 30+ years. Still in great shape for 30+ years old. I had it CLA twice so far and no replacement parts were needed.... Just CLA. There is one in EX+ or EX++ condition (Rated as one would use KEH's rating as the guide) in my local camera shop... Memphis Photo Supply Buzzy is friendly and very helpful.

 

Why didn't I buy it, I already have an M4, really do not need another one.

[Photoskeptic]

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I have an M4 that is used regularly. I just got an M3 which suits me better as I only shoot a 50. I haven't decided whether or not to sell the M4.

However, per M4, these are incredibly robust machines. Mine had a CLA from DAG three years ago. All rangefinder settngs and shutter speeds have remained the same. I used a 1.25 magnifier for mine to help w/focusing - almost essential when using the longer lenses. Also, a mini softie was/is a nice addition for me. Once you have one, if this is your first rangefinder, give yourself time to learn the eccentricities and shoot, shoot, shoot.

Good luck.

[luigi bertolotti]

Stas, another advice on M4s...

if You are not so in love with CLASSIC and WETZLAR, why not to consider M4-2 or M4-P ? It seems to me that prices are a liitle lower than M4... and

1) they are "less old" by nature

2) Mech is same good as M4

3) M4-2 lacks self timer... important ?

4) M4-P HAS 28 mm frame : surely appreciable.

[R.Morrison]

For another two cent's worth in Canadian funds be advised that I acquired an ex-photojournalist M4-P that really showed some battle scars. The paint was gone from the trap door, there were chips on the body covering and there were severe strap rub-marks. The black chrome finish was worn thin but was mostly still there unlike the not-nearly-as-tough black laquer on recent models. The camera works flawlessly and continues to lead a hard proffessional life. A couple of years ago I had a gig as a still-photographer on a movie set and did some fast and furious shooting alternating between a Pentax and the Leica so I wouldn't have to take the time to change lenses. The experience killed the electronic Pentax while the Leica soldiered on much loved by the sound crew because it was quiet.

It has never been CLAed (if it isn't broken don't fix it). Will it ever be restored? No. Every paint chip, and scuff mark is a badge of honour. The Abrahamsson Rapid Winder is a boon for fast shooting.

 

Robert Morrison, M4-P, etc.

[stasber]

Thomas -

Some useful reminders and pointers to bear in mind, thanks. As a personal preference I do tend to prefer well used items to new so this is probably why cosmetics don't bother me too much; though obviously do need to look out for the 'abused'. They say you only start to break-in a Toyota engine after some 100,000 miles. Good link too, though I noticed the reply within hours of the posting, unsurprisingly! Black would be my god-send.

 

Robert -

I had a chat with Buzzy and he has a nice example and within budget too, which is food for thought. It was CLA'd by DAG approx 3 years ago, so has some mileage left so to speak. Very nice guy to talk to. I'll check out KEH too.

 

John -

Good response there, thank you. It's not a black M4 is it?

 

Luigi - and all..

I've had an M4-P for about 10 years now, which was CLA'd before purchase. It stayed unused mostly and is now seeing a lot more action. Slow speeds are sticky (as in 1, 2, 4)but 1/8 is grand and I've no problems with hand holding and getting consistent results as I'm used to shooting slow.

 

I'm doing a fair bit of traveling this year too, and besides parting with my M4-P for a CLA in the UK, I want a second body and my pick of the bunch is the M4, for all the reasons. I mostly shoot 50, I have a 35 and 90 (all crons) and am comfortable with these. The 1.25x comes in handy for the 90 but slows me down if I switch between it and a 35 during a show or gig, or in a crowd at a festival. 2 bodies is the way to go for me.

 

Besides, it's one thing to read about an M4 and another to try one out and feel the handling, and though my M4-P is slick, the M4 is just caramel. I was considerng removing the 28, 75 and 135 brightlines at the next CLA too as I doubt very much I'll be using them and don't see myself selling the M4-P on.

[stasber]

Typical... I reply just as someone else posts

 

It has never been CLAed (if it isn't broken don't fix it). Will it ever be restored? No. Every paint chip, and scuff mark is a badge of honour. The Abrahamsson Rapid Winder is a boon for fast shooting.

 

Robert Morrison, M4-P, etc.

 

Thanks Robert, that shows some confidence there. The only advantage to a CLA for something that 'aint broke' is probably the added longevity of components, but it's fair play to you that you have a workhorse for a camera, not let you down in a demanding work (as opposed to leisure) environment. Great stuff.

 

I was recently thinking of a Rapid Winder for my gig work actually, still haven't come to a conclusion, I think the second body is higher up my list.

[lmr]

Stas:

 

Just saw Buzzy... He mentioned he has a pleasant chat with you. If you are interested the M4 is still there and it looks great. He has other M and SM/LTM stuff if you are interested...

 

- 2 New (Not owned) with Passport M6TTL Chrome... almost $2K less than an MP or M7.

- IIIg with 35 Elmar, 50 f1.5 and 90 f4(?) with original red box, bubble case for lens and Manual. That was CLA a couple of weeks ago and it looks Mint... The 35 Elmar is mint nad no fogging.

 

I am still holding out for the M8 when he gets one.

[earleygallery]

Consider - a mint/boxed M4 would certainly need a full CLA. Like a car that hasn't been driven for a few years, you can't just start it up and expect everything to be OK. Things seize up, things dry out.

 

A well & regularly used example is likely to be functioning OK, likely to have been serviced etc.

 

Personally I prefer items in good condition. As someone else pointed out, get a nice one and have it serviced and its still a nice one. Its not worth buying a truly mint example though if you're going to use it, as it will no doubt accumulate marks.

 

I guess it really comes down to your personal preference and the price you have to pay for the camera. Either route makes sense. Buy from e bay and just factor in the cost of a CLA or buy from a dealer, pay more and have a g'tee.

 

Things to check? Shutter speeds/operation, shutter curtains for damage or pinholes, rangefinder clarity/operation.

[Johannes Knightworth]

Although everything mentioned here makes sense, it seems to me that buying a "used" looking camera you can be sure that it has been used. Even if a B- or C camera has had a CLA it will have been used a lot or have been used carelessly. A CLA is just a CLA it doesn't cover exchanging the worn mechanical parts of which some will have impact on the final image quality.

A good looking M4, say from 1970 will of been used with care and not as frequently as a "battered" version, which in my opinion is always a better buy and will guarantee a longer life (in most cases)

I buy all my stuff second hand but clearly look for the nicer looking ones and then have them CLA'd, I've never been disappointed yet. And if investing in an expensive used camera, which an M4 always is, I would always spend a few $ more, just to be on the safe side.

As for the M4, excellent choice I have owned one since 1969 (got it new for my 11th birthday) It has been CLA'd twice by now, it had the original vulcanite exchanged, traveled around the world multiple times and is still as reliable as it was 30 years ago. I have never used any other M model so I am not able to compare, I'm still happy with my M4