Buy the M-Monochrom, or Wait for the M10?

[Jamie Roberts]

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Yes Jamie, I have a Baryta print of the MM in front of me as I type. I like the quality. :) {snipped}

 

Jaap--what I actually asked was do you have a good Baryta print from the M9 or M8? I do them all the time; they are pretty fabulous.

[Double Negative]

Buy today... Shoot today.

[Jeff S]

Buy today... Shoot today.

 

Old school thinking.

 

New school: order today....wait for supply...then shoot.

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

Jaap--what I actually asked was do you have a good Baryta print from the M9 or M8? I do them all the time; they are pretty fabulous.

No - I should start doing them from my present files, I know they are a quantum leap forwards.. Do you do them yourself? I was thinking of using Whitewall.

[Guest malland]

Mitch, it's great work, honestly. Thanks for posting it!

 

I don't see anything there that an M9 couldn't have done without any difficulty whatsoever. Channel operations in PS (not channel mixing) will be your friend there.

 

But I would also urge you to wait and check some mixed / tungsten light MM files before you invest. IMO, the yellow / blue mixing you will need for your urban and gritty work will require a *lot* of channel blending just to get decent skin; filtering isn't going to do it.

 

This is not landscape work where shadow detail is important, or studio work, where the light colour is predictable. You will not get a longer range of midtones with the MM over the M9, and since you're crushing the shadows in post, you are getting rid of the most interesting element of the MM....

Jamie, thanks for looking at "Bangkok Hysteria" and for the kind words. Bangkok Hysteria was shot with a range of cameras that are all "lesser" to the M9, including mainly the GRD, GRD2 and GRD3. Therefore, it is not surprising that there is nothing there that couldn't have been done with the M9, although 22 out 112 of the photos were shot with the M6, mainly with Tri-X. My point is that, now that shooting with film is not a reality for me although I still have one M6 left, I am looking to the M-Monochrom to extend and broaden the range of the style that I can achieve now. In this respect, I would be looking to what is unique or inherent in the M-Monochrom, as Jaap has suggested elsewhere ("Wesentlich") , not only what is film-like in it.

 

However, it would be good to be able to try out some M-Monopchrom files shot in mixed and tungsten light to see how it renders skin, as you suggest. For this, Sobol's shots with flash would not be a good indicator.

 

—Mitch/Hua Hin

Scratching the Surface

[Jeff S]

No - I should start doing them from my present files, I know they are a quantum leap forwards.. Do you do them yourself? I was thinking of using Whitewall.

 

I know you asked Jamie, but here's my two cents anyway. If you're intent on making b/w your project, there is nothing like fully executing every step from camera to print. If you've done this before, then you know what this control will do for your work. And if not, you'll be amazed over the quality possible with today's printers, inks and papers, especially if you take the time to do custom profiles.

 

And one shouldn't discount the benefits of better software either. With every iteration of LR, my print results have improved, without much effort on my part. It's like getting a better camera or lens every year. I'm sure you'll find the same with your software of choice.

 

I suspect you'll see more progress in your work doing this with an M9 than you will initially see from any camera change, even to the MM. And if you get the MM, you'll be grateful you got things started with the M9.

 

Plus, long term, you'll save a lot of money if you plan to make lots of prints. Once in a while you still might want a laser print, or a print that exceeds the size capacity of your printer, but otherwise I bet you won't see the need to outsource. I tweak my prints over time, especially after I've 'lived' with them for a bit (or if I want to try a different paper, or if LR improves, etc), and I doubt I'd spend all the time and money if I knew this was outsourced every time.

 

Jeff

[Jamie Roberts]

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No - I should start doing them from my present files, I know they are a quantum leap forwards.. Do you do them yourself? I was thinking of using Whitewall.

 

Hey Jaap--yes, Jeff has laid the groundwork for my answer but I'll be specific...

 

You could use a good lab, it's true, but honestly I've been using Baryta-based papers since they arrived a few years ago (Harmon was my favourite at first) with an Epson 3800.

 

So pick up an Epson 3880 and some Ilford / Harmon / Hahnemuhle Baryta stock if you want to do it yourself and you'll be quite surprised at the quality you will see. For BW, I particularly like ImagePrint as a print and layout engine.

 

Yes, it's subtle, and you can get 90% of the way there printing from PS or LR, but with ImagePrint you can do things like ink-limiting in the shadows for specific paper batches or stocks if you need to...

 

If you can find a Lambda printer at a lab (might be commercial and you might have to print to a 52" roll width, but it's worth it!), get some done on Kodak Endura. You might be even more surprised

[rramesh]

Old school thinking.

 

New school: order today....wait for supply...then shoot.

 

Jeff

Future school. Order today. Regret as new model announced. Change order prior to shipment. Return within 30 days of receipt of new order, only to place order for newer model.

[Guest malland]

...For BW, I particularly like ImagePrint as a print and layout engine.

 

Yes, it's subtle, and you can get 90% of the way there printing from PS or LR, but with ImagePrint you can do things like ink-limiting in the shadows for specific paper batches or stocks if you need to...

Yes, Ive been using ImagePrint since 1999, currently with an Epson 9880. At that time, the ImagePrint dither was substantially better than that of the Epson driver; currently I suspect it's a little, perhaps marginally, better — and the Epson B&W driver has improved a lot. What I find is that the uprezzing within ImagePrint, rather than in steps within Photoshop, is excellent: I take the original file size and increase it to, say, 100x150cm within ImagePrint and find the results excellent. Do you have any views on that?

 

The ColorByte people have beeb terrific. They called me in Bangkok on New Year's Eve their time in December 1999, when I was having problem with the version of ImagePrint that ran under Mac OS 9 and helped me to solve that.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Pak Nam Pran

[Guest malland]

Future school. Order today. Regret as new model announced. Change order prior to shipment. Return within 30 days of receipt of new order, only to place order for newer model.

I must say that I hate the way some people order new cameras just to try them when they don't have any intention to buy — and are clueless enough to state so openly on photography forums. Not only is that unethical, but it also increases cost for everyone.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Barrier

[Jeff S]

Future school. Order today. Regret as new model announced. Change order prior to shipment. Return within 30 days of receipt of new order, only to place order for newer model.

 

That's the buyers' problem, and exists even today, not just in the future (edit...as Mitch describes). My scenario is dictated by the seller.

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

So pick up an Epson 3880 and some Ilford / Harmon / Hahnemuhle Baryta stock

 

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, specifically, for my b/w work. Sometimes Photo Rag Pearl for a warmer tone. And I would add Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique for a somewhat cooler, whiter tone, but still rich and beautiful...it has no optical brighteners and is becoming a favorite. (If I end up switching to Canson papers, then Canson Platine would become the paper of choice for a slightly warmer tone.)

 

Jeff

[thrid]

I would wait for the M10 and see which one has more dynamic range.

 

For me b/w is more about exposure range and tonality, than this obsession with sharpness. 18mp or higher will give you a big print that is plenty sharp.

 

If the M10 uses a CMOS sensor of the newest generation then we should see a substantial jump in that department compared to the CCD in the M9 that is now getting a little long in the tooth.

 

I would be very surprised if the M10 was EVF, but liveview is almost certain if it uses CMOS.

[Jeff S]

Regarding ImagePrint, I've heard good things from others. But as Mitch says, the Epson drivers have progressed significantly. Additionally, while the profiles from IP are better than many available elsewhere, a robust custom profile will often be better, as a friend tested and found. Plus IP can be expensive.

 

If one wants to spend more, and invest more time, for incrementally improved b/w work beyond using stock Epson gear, then investing in third party inks, e.g., from John Cone that provide 7 shades of black/grey, is another alternative. Of course that involves a dedicated b/w printer and some additional steps, for instance a second pass with gloss optimizer for glossy papers.

 

I wish Epson would come up with its own dedicated b/w printer. Perhaps the MM, and any potential offshoots, will provide energy in that direction.

 

Jeff

[Jamie Roberts]

Regarding ImagePrint, I've heard good things from others. But as Mitch says, the Epson drivers have progressed significantly. Additionally, while the profiles from IP are better than many available elsewhere, a robust custom profile will often be better, as a friend tested and found. Plus IP can be expensive.

 

{snipped}

 

You can do custom colour profiles with IP; which I've done quite a bit. They are amazing

 

You can't make BW profiles as far as I know, but their BW profiles are extremely good; Though I'm sure the Cone stuff and dedicated inks are even better. I'm very happy with the results though, which certainly come extremely close to matching what I could do in the dark room (and truth to tell, a lot faster and with a lot less mess )

 

As I said before, though, the fact that IP is really a RIP and not just a print driver means I can do things with different paper stocks.

 

Take, for example, Canson's Arches Infinity rag. It's still through the Epson driver, because too much (matte) black ink gets laid onto the paper. With ImagePrint it's not problem to limit the black and get a superb print.

 

I don't know how the Cone system would work with things like that.

 

That's not Baryta, of course, but I like the flexibility there.

 

Like Mitch, I'm a big fan of IP's support team too--they've always been great and there for me when I need them.

 

@ Mitch--their uprezzing algorithms are superior for sure. Just like you, I can do the same thing in PS but it takes multiple steps; the results from IP are the same or better and it's a single step

[Jamie Roberts]

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, specifically, for my b/w work. Sometimes Photo Rag Pearl for a warmer tone. And I would add Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique for a somewhat cooler, whiter tone, but still rich and beautiful...it has no optical brighteners and is becoming a favorite. (If I end up switching to Canson papers, then Canson Platine would become the paper of choice for a slightly warmer tone.)

 

Jeff

 

I'm also thinking that Hahnemuhle bought Harmon... IIRC? I'm actually working with H Photo Rag Baryta... can't find the Harmon locally anymore, but I thought they were essentially the same thing...

[Jeff S]

I'm also thinking that Hahnemuhle bought Harmon... IIRC? I'm actually working with H Photo Rag Baryta... can't find the Harmon locally anymore, but I thought they were essentially the same thing...

 

Company names and mergers...that's a hole we don't want to get into...recall that the name Harman derives from Alfred Harman, the founder of Ilford....and so on.

 

I learned recently that Ilford is renaming, repackaging and no doubt repricing some of their papers. Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, another one of my preferred papers for color, will apparently be available as 'Prestige.' At least I think the formula will remain constant, so no new profiling needed...I hope.

 

Reminds me of the darkroom days...no sooner find a good paper, and develop an associated workflow, to learn that it changes or disappears.

 

Jeff

[rgk]

Perhaps an argument for the M Monochrom, I've read several reviews that the D800E needs a tripod to take advantage of the high resolution.. is 18MP ideal for hand held photography or where is the limit? Will an eventual high resolution M10 need a tripod to take fully advantage of it?

 

I am perplexed. In order to get the best results from my D3x, I had to use a tripod. However walking about with the S2 and 70mm, I find no need for a tripod. I would love to understand why this is.

[MarkP]

Company names and mergers...that's a hole we don't want to get into...recall that the name Harman derives from Alfred Harman, the founder of Ilford....and so on.

 

I learned recently that Ilford is renaming, repackaging and no doubt repricing some of their papers. Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, another one of my preferred papers for color, will apparently be available as 'Prestige.' At least I think the formula will remain constant, so no new profiling needed...I hope.

 

Reminds me of the darkroom days...no sooner find a good paper, and develop an associated workflow, to learn that it changes or disappears.

 

Jeff

 

I agree with you about the Gold Fibre Silk, but I use it for B&W.

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[Jamie Roberts]

I am perplexed. In order to get the best results from my D3x, I had to use a tripod. However walking about with the S2 and 70mm, I find no need for a tripod. I would love to understand why this is.

 

Maybe the S2 is heavier and therefore more stable? I know I was amazed at how light my D3 (not D3x) was. The S2 really is a pleasure to shoot! Not sure what this has to do, really, with the MM, though