New Firmware 1.092 thoughts/ Read instructions

[marknorton]

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I'm kind of pleased John and Bob have been able to reproduce the problem - thanks for trying. The positioning is critical and in terms of everyday shooting, it's not as important as the streaking which caused the hardware recall. I'm just hoping Leica will eventually fix it in firmware.

 

The list of enhancements they have published is pretty lame - a menu item here, a wording correction there. It would have been so much better if they had been more explicit about the other changes. The reduction in JPEG noise looks to be significant and welcome, so why didn't they list it as a change? And to stop this speculation, why didn't they say something about the shutter noise instead of keeping quiet about it? If we knew why the shutter noise had changed, we would be more accepting of it but there's no doubt in my mind - comparing two cameras side by side, before and after - that the shutter noise has changed for the worse.

 

I certainly agree the inability to chimp a DNG in B&W is a step backwards. They already grey out the saturation menu item when you select DNG so it would be simple to replace that with a "DNG Review - Colour or B/W" item.

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[4season]

Having just upgraded to 1.092, I sought out some difficult lighting situations to see if I could still see the faint vertical band that would occasionally appear near the center of the frame in 1.09. Good news is that so far, I'm not seeing that banding, or any other artifacts in the dark areas. But now I'm seeing green and red vertical bands in the center of this one particular photo. But my other photos are streak-free. I don't know if this is a new idiosyncracy or not.

 

White balance seems much improved.

 

(ISO 1250, 1/250th sec @ f/2.8, 35mm Summicron IV w/6-bit coding, DNG image)

 

EDIT: Upon closer examination, I think I need to take a closer look at this building, because said green streak seems to cast proper reflections.

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[marknorton]

Looks like the rainbow vertical bars you used to get in an image taken immediately on waking up the camera have gone.

[Jamie Roberts]

I compared high ISO shots and this is what I have found: A significant improvement on JPGs and a marginal improvement on DNGs. {snipped}

 

I'm also seeing a huge improvement in chroma noise in RAW, but I'm using C1 with the default noise settings for the M8.

 

Still, it's actually bigger than the JPEG difference.

 

@ Olivier--you are seeing a difference in the shading of the "ir" shots because the lighting of the two shots is different, and because Leica has improved / changed the colour response overall, I think, with this firmware release.

 

At least without filters, the IR magenta shift in JPEGs seems noticably less with synthetic blacks.

[ho_co]

I don't think that's the problem, Rob. Like I said, it did good a good job at cutting the IR before the firmware update. Also, how do you explain the difference between the two photos - before and after update - taken with the same Heliopan filter?

Olivier--

I don't know what Leica's firmware changes entail, but as Robert said, the Heliopan and the B+W filters don't have the same spectral curve. And Leica recommends using only the Leica-supplied (Schneider, B+W) filters. So apparently, their optimization will be based on that filter. The shift you see between the older and the newer firmware seems to be merely a move toward this new color balance, as Jamie suggests, in a step toward the cyan-shift corrections planned for 1.1.

 

(They could have held off offering this upgrade, but they seem to be giving us what they've got as soon as they get it--a good thing, I say, because it gives us more to talk about on the forum. )

 

Why don't you either use one of your free Leica filters (well, when you get them ) or borrow one and see how the Leica filter compares with the Heliopan, for both older and newer firmware? Then we could see whether Leica's filters really are preferable with the new firmware (likely IMHO), and we could see whether the color shift occurs with the Leica as well as the Heliopan in the move from 1.09 to 1.092 (also likely IMHO).

 

Your questions are good, and as you suggest, someone ought to try to find an answer when possible.

 

--HC

[Guest Walt]

Here's my two cents with two bodies, #52xx and #69xx. I shoot no color, so I am ignoring issues on that front. I have had no misbehavior with either camera (freezes, etc.)

 

1. Changing "compression" in the set menu does not update the frame counter until a frame is fired or the camera is power cycled.

2. Menu scrolling occasionally jumps two places instead of the expected one with only a "one notch" turn of the wheel. I think I find that simply exercising the wheel cures this problem (several rapid turns in both directions).

3. The initial preview in B+W seen with the old software is gone (though frames shot with the old software still preview that way in the new software). With the old software, one could also freeze the B+W preview by hitting the delete button twice in quick succession. That, of course, is also now not available. So, while I hate to add a menu item to this elegantly simple camera, it *badly needs* a way to preview DNGs in B+W. This is my only functional complaint about the camera.

4. I am easily able to reproduce the "green bar" from a light source right on the edge of the frame (not the bright line) with either camera. I haven't had it ruin a shot, and right now it wouldn't be high on my priority of problems.

5. I am wondering why there is a menu option to turn off lens detection. Leaving it on with uncoded lenses makes no difference in my experience. Is it a matter of battery drain? How about just letting the camera see if it finds a code and, if it doesn't, turn detection off. Or are there "all white" codes?

6. I checked the shutter sound on the two bodies before updating either and they were very similar. I then updated one and checked this again and they were still very similar. I then updated the second body and checked again. Still very similar. I find the shutter acceptably quiet and I also find that even if people hear it they don't associate it with a camera.

7. I would like to mention that I have never owned two bodies of the same camera that showed as little sample variation as these two. This speaks very well to Leica's QC. I could not say this of previously owned pairs of M4s and M4-2s.`

 

So that's my short list of suggestions for this wonderful camera. If one of mine starts smoking I'll let forum members know. Right now wild horses couldn't drag me away.

 

Thanks,

Walt

[barjohn]

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Jamie,

 

Can you post some 100% crops of high ISO showing the improvement you are seeing on DNGs? I see some improvement but not the magnitude you seem to be describing.

 

By default C1 noise settings for M8, can you clarify. If I bring in M8 DNG files and I look at the Focus tab, are these the noise settings you ar referring to? If not touched, aren't they set to a default value? There is also a button for camera default. (C1LE). Are you using Pro and is it different?

[scott kirkpatrick]

Here's my two cents with two bodies, #52xx and #69xx. I shoot no color, so I am ignoring issues on that front. I have had no misbehavior with either camera (freezes, etc.)

 

1. Changing "compression" in the set menu does not update the frame counter until a frame is fired or the camera is power cycled.

2. Menu scrolling occasionally jumps two places instead of the expected one with only a "one notch" turn of the wheel. I think I find that simply exercising the wheel cures this problem (several rapid turns in both directions).

3. The initial preview in B+W seen with the old software is gone (though frames shot with the old software still preview that way in the new software). With the old software, one could also freeze the B+W preview by hitting the delete button twice in quick succession. That, of course, is also now not available. So, while I hate to add a menu item to this elegantly simple camera, it *badly needs* a way to preview DNGs in B+W. This is my only functional complaint about the camera.

4. I am easily able to reproduce the "green bar" from a light source right on the edge of the frame (not the bright line) with either camera. I haven't had it ruin a shot, and right now it wouldn't be high on my priority of problems.

5. I am wondering why there is a menu option to turn off lens detection. Leaving it on with uncoded lenses makes no difference in my experience. Is it a matter of battery drain? How about just letting the camera see if it finds a code and, if it doesn't, turn detection off. Or are there "all white" codes?

6. I checked the shutter sound on the two bodies before updating either and they were very similar. I then updated one and checked this again and they were still very similar. I then updated the second body and checked again. Still very similar. I find the shutter acceptably quiet and I also find that even if people hear it they don't associate it with a camera.

7. I would like to mention that I have never owned two bodies of the same camera that showed as little sample variation as these two. This speaks very well to Leica's QC. I could not say this of previously owned pairs of M4s and M4-2s.`

 

So that's my short list of suggestions for this wonderful camera. If one of mine starts smoking I'll let forum members know. Right now wild horses couldn't drag me away.

 

Thanks,

Walt

 

There does seem to be a jumpiness in reviewing images, whether its using the wheel or the arrow buttons, with occasional skips.

 

On lens detection, turning it off allows defeating the firmware that removes vignetting if, for example, you like it or if the built-in corrections prove too strong, as some have been reported to be. They may get 'em all right in 1.10, but i don't expect it. The "all white" code is identified in the firmware as "uncoded." There is apparently no harm in leaving it on all the time.

 

scott

[carstenw]

...except for lenses which have a screw somewhere in the detection area, such as the Zeiss 21mm. In that case, the screw might be interpreted as a black spot, and the wrong code applied to the lens.

[scott kirkpatrick]

By default C1 noise settings for M8, can you clarify. If I bring in M8 DNG files and I look at the Focus tab, are these the noise settings you ar referring to? If not touched, aren't they set to a default value? There is also a button for camera default. (C1LE). Are you using Pro and is it different?

 

I'm using C1 Pro, as is Jamie (I suspect) and when you go to the Focus tab, and look at

the "noise parameters" box, there are sliders for "noise suppression" and "color noise suppression." It's color noise suppression that comes up with default settings ranging from 1/4 to full depending on your ISO setting. I turn it off when I am working on an image, as I don't see that it helps much on 100% onscreen, and would prefer not to lose resolution. I'd prefer to see the defaults set to zero, frankly. When you point C1 at an M8 image, the remainder of the box is "banding suppression" and "pattern noise suppression," which must be specially designed for Kodak chips.

 

C1 LE might be different. Take a look and let us know.

 

scott

[waterlenz]

Just getting around to uploading the new FW this evening. I noticed right away that the number of pix on the card is greater than before; from 148 to 187 with a newly formatted Sandisk Extreme III 2GB saving only DNG.

 

I did a quick test at ISO2500 and agree with post #122 that the nasty vertical band to the right of center seems to be gone.

 

Yup, to see in B&W one must include a jpeg save as well as B&W in the color menu

 

No chance to check for sensor blooming into the sun for a while as we are in a blizzard conditions!

 

ISO above the pic is WAY cool! This should the number of wrong ISO shots.

 

Danke schoen!

 

Tom

[stunsworth]

Tom, I've seen 187 on a 2 gig card since I bought the camera with 1.09 firmware.

 

Not sure why you've seen a smaller number. Do you always format the card in camera?

[marknorton]

...except for lenses which have a screw somewhere in the detection area, such as the Zeiss 21mm. In that case, the screw might be interpreted as a black spot, and the wrong code applied to the lens.

 

Some of the Leica lenses do as well, the pre-ASPH 35/2 and the Nocti, for example.

[marknorton]

ISO above the pic is WAY cool! This should the number of wrong ISO shots.

 

I agree it's good to be able to see the ISO on the title bar but I'm wondering whether they could make a distinction between images on "Auto Review" and "Play".

 

For Auto Review, you really do not need the date and time becuase it's always "Now" and instead, they could put in the EV override value and WB as well - a good summary of the shot you've just taken: ISO, EV, WB and Shutter speed. For "Play", the date and time becomes more important and it's a choice what else to put in there.

[adan]

My 2 pennies, before I start off for a jaunt through the Rockies to PMA (see y'all Sunday when I get back)

 

Original production M8 - no hardware upgrade yet. No coded lenses, and only one IR filter so far that only fits my teles (39mm). Direct upgrade from the original 1.06 that came loaded on the camera to 1.092. Piece of cake!

 

Only real differences I see - besides the black bar on playback, which is OK, but I wasn't bothered by the silver one either - are:

 

no more waterfall rainbow bands if I shoot fast after startup; and a definite improvement in reds shot under tungsten (not as magenta as before) when processed in ACR.

 

I don't hear much difference in the shutter - yes, perhaps a faint doubling of the click at the beginning of the exposure, but I wouldn't call it a "thunk", or louder. I expect this is part of resequencing to avoid the waterfall bands, but I don't sense a real delay or lag. In fact if it had not been mentioned here I probably wouldn't have though there was any change (and perhaps there really isn't).

 

I don't worry about in-camera WB enough to tell if it is better or not. I do get a sense that the colors have perhaps been shifted a tad toward green even in .dng (it seems like I need less green tint WBing in ACR than my default calibrated to v.1.06) - but need to shoot a lot more (hopefully at Arches N. P. Thursday) to see if that's real.

 

Overall, it just seems like the same old M8 to me (which is great!).

 

BTW if anyone else is going to PMA I'll hit the show Friday only, mostly just to try a few shots with the WATE and the tiny 28, and pass along some images to the reps I share with Guy. Might bug the Canon folks about an SD-compatable upgrade to the 5D and stop by Olympus to see what they're adding that might play nice with the Digilux 3.

[cocker]

Tom, I've seen 187 on a 2 gig card since I bought the camera with 1.09 firmware.

 

Not sure why you've seen a smaller number. Do you always format the card in camera?

 

Same here - 187 before firmware update with that card and 187 after.

[Hans Roggen]

About the shutternoise:

 

(maybe i missed it in this thread, but i case i didn't: here a post from Karl-Heinz Fink in another thread. I hope you don't mind me posting it here Karl-Heinz, but there seems to be some concern about the new shutter noise).

 

Hi,

 

 

I just had a chat with a product manager in Solms about the noise "problem" in the new firmware.

 

He confirmed that the new firmware has indeed a slightly different shutter noise. Why? Well, the shutter is released in two steps (something like pull the safety lock and shoot after that).

In the old firmware that was done together. In the new firmware, there is a small delay between the two actions, as Leica found that it works more precise. That's all

 

Best Regards

 

Karl-Heinz

[steich]

I just took my M8 in our radio studio and made some recordings before and after updating to 1.092.

The difference becomes most obvious when you listen to the "1 second" shutter speed. I left out the shutter closing and rewinding noise, it is the same. But the shutter´s opening noise is definitely different. Listen...first "click" ist 1.091, second "click..lick" is 1.092.

((As the forum software does not allow uploading mp3 files, I changed the extension to ".pdf". To listen, please download and rename to ".mp3"))

Regards

Stefan

1 sec.pdf

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Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Shootist]

Tom, I've seen 187 on a 2 gig card since I bought the camera with 1.09 firmware.

 

Not sure why you've seen a smaller number. Do you always format the card in camera?

 

 

Funny but I get 190 on both my Lexar 133x 2GB cards and 95 on my sandisc E/II 1GB card.

[hammam]

Olivier--

I don't know what Leica's firmware changes entail, but as Robert said, the Heliopan and the B+W filters don't have the same spectral curve. And Leica recommends using only the Leica-supplied (Schneider, B+W) filters. So apparently, their optimization will be based on that filter. The shift you see between the older and the newer firmware seems to be merely a move toward this new color balance, as Jamie suggests, in a step toward the cyan-shift corrections planned for 1.1.

 

(They could have held off offering this upgrade, but they seem to be giving us what they've got as soon as they get it--a good thing, I say, because it gives us more to talk about on the forum. )

 

Why don't you either use one of your free Leica filters (well, when you get them ) or borrow one and see how the Leica filter compares with the Heliopan, for both older and newer firmware? Then we could see whether Leica's filters really are preferable with the new firmware (likely IMHO), and we could see whether the color shift occurs with the Leica as well as the Heliopan in the move from 1.09 to 1.092 (also likely IMHO).

 

Your questions are good, and as you suggest, someone ought to try to find an answer when possible.

 

--HC

 

Howard, you're probably right. Leicas must have tweaked the response to IR in 1.092 more towards the B+W 486 filter. It's too bad (at least for me) because the only IR-cut I could find were the Heliopans, at Tamarkin, and I bought two at the cost of $170. Leica still hasn't shipped my two complimentary filters ordered a month ago. I don't think the B+W are to be found anywhere in Montreal, so I guess it's back to Tamarkin.

 

This M8 is great, but demanding.