AlanG Posted May 22, 2012 Share #81 Posted May 22, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry, I wasn't being critical of what you said, just rhetorical. The point I think we all understand is that the MM has as much dynamic range as they can make and also is not limited in its spectral response. So it should be possible to get all kinds of different looks out of it for those who try. But the more I think about it, converting from color using a computer gives the most tone control. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Hi AlanG, Take a look here M9M spectral sensitivity. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted May 22, 2012 Share #82 Posted May 22, 2012 Sorry, I wasn't being critical of what you said, just rhetorical. The point I think we all understand is that the MM has as much dynamic range as they can make and also is not limited in its spectral response. So it should be possible to get all kinds of different looks out of it for those who try. But the more I think about it, converting from color using a computer gives the most tone control. Thanks Alan - I have learned a lot from these discussions. It may be lazy of me, but I have found that I tend to settle on one film and stick with it. I have always hated colour negative film, and haven't used it since I was a kid. I preferred Kodachrome 64 (or 25, if the conditions warranted) and later Provia. For black & white, I tend to use Tri-X. I could say that this is because I preferred the tones or spectral range, but I'd be lying. Changing films was another variable I didn't really want - I understood how this film worked, and I then changed my approach to suit. I rather see the Monochrom as being similar. I don't want any artifice built into the sensor, just raw data I can work with. It has tremendous resolution from what I can see, and fantastic ISO range. It does seem to have similar tolerance as slide film to highlights, but I can live with that. What I want is strong blacks, nice clean light tones, and warm mid-ranges. I'm assuming that as the good people from TrueSense and Leica know far more than me about such things, and presumably know what they're doing, I can get the images I want (with the judicious use of a yellow, orange or red filter when needed, and some post-processing). I've never really played with the colour balance in B&W images from my M9, so I'm not sure what I'll be missing - actually, nothing, as I won't be selling my M9. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted May 22, 2012 Share #83 Posted May 22, 2012 I've never really played with the colour balance in B&W images from my M9, so I'm not sure what I'll be missing - actually, nothing, as I won't be selling my M9. I suggest you explore this even if getting an MM because it will give you insight into how colors in the scene will affect your b/w tones. But keep in mind this is not really about color balance. It is about being able to selectively lighten or darken specific colors... often in ways that can't be done with camera filters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 23, 2012 Share #84 Posted May 23, 2012 I suggest you explore this even if getting an MM because it will give you insight into how colors in the scene will affect your b/w tones. But keep in mind this is not really about color balance. It is about being able to selectively lighten or darken specific colors... often in ways that can't be done with camera filters. Yes, I understand that. I will look at that further as I play more with B&W with my M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted May 23, 2012 Share #85 Posted May 23, 2012 alan g is absolutely right -- i get my bw through capture one the same way. convert and then push or pull various colors, and if i can to enhance the effect i can always oversaturate the photo first. interestingly, i learned this from a manual on photoshop elements explaining the advantage of converting to bw rather than desaturating the color. i never go to silver efex 2 anymore, as my interest is not in replicating a particular film but in creating the image i want and moving the color sliders in capture one and the other adjustments i get there with no problem. with henri that is lost, other things are gained, and spectral sensitivity becomes an important factor. it seems that users will need to dust off the filters, which is okay i guess, but after a couple of days of replicating that work flow with my m9 i lost interest in the purity of the approach and went back to converting color dng to bw......have started to play around with low iso bw film, 25 and 50, looks like fun so far..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henri Posted May 25, 2012 Share #86 Posted May 25, 2012 Finally, Leica publishes detailled information on the spectral sensitivity Leica M Monochrom. Thanks! Spectral Sensitivity Leica M Monochrom.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 25, 2012 Share #87 Posted May 25, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Can you post a link, please, Henri? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erudolph Posted May 25, 2012 Share #88 Posted May 25, 2012 Hmmm... I thought there would be more responses to the Spectral Sensitivity pdf from Leica, especially given some previous posts referring to dark skin tones and increased green sensitivity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted May 25, 2012 Share #89 Posted May 25, 2012 Hmmm... I thought there would be more responses to the Spectral Sensitivity pdf from Leica, especially given some previous posts referring to dark skin tones and increased green sensitivity. My views here: ChromaSoft: The Leica M Monochrom's spectral sensitivity In brief, pretty much as expected - I think that the expected red/IR filter does seem to be there. It seems to cut in quite early; that may be resulting in slightly odd skin tones, especially with light caucasian skins. But the overall balance looks like a reasonable compromise given the reality of keeping the sensitivity gains, available filter materials, etc. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted May 25, 2012 Share #90 Posted May 25, 2012 It annoys me that the author (Leica) did not take the time to make the three plots to the same X,Y scale and give us a CSV file. Their effort shouts laziness. Guess I'll do it on my own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakley Posted May 25, 2012 Share #91 Posted May 25, 2012 Finally, Leica publishes detailled information on the spectral sensitivity Leica M Monochrom.Thanks! The graph and the swatch chart don't seem to me to be telling the same story. The sensitivity graph says there's extended red/IR sensitivity compared to Tri-X. But the swatch chart, if I'm reading it right, shows that the MM consistently renders reds and oranges DARKER than Tri-X does. I think I'm confused. Do y'all agree that I'm confused? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted May 25, 2012 Share #92 Posted May 25, 2012 My views here: ChromaSoft: The Leica M Monochrom's spectral sensitivity In brief, pretty much as expected - I think that the expected red/IR filter does seem to be there. It seems to cut in quite early; that may be resulting in slightly odd skin tones, especially with light caucasian skins. But the overall balance looks like a reasonable compromise given the reality of keeping the sensitivity gains, available filter materials, etc. Sandy I agree. Looking at how the color chart is interpreted in grey scale values, lighter skin tones will be reproduced a little bit darker than with T-Max. I doubt if this will be a big deal to many users and I can't recall many worrying about these kinds of differences between mainstream film choices. (I never did.) Yellows through reds will reproduce a bit darker. Maybe that is why some of us chose a film such as Plus X or Tri X and stuck with it for years... because we were comfortable with the familiar look it gave us. This is new but not that different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted May 25, 2012 Share #93 Posted May 25, 2012 My views here: ChromaSoft: The Leica M Monochrom's spectral sensitivity In brief, pretty much as expected - I think that the expected red/IR filter does seem to be there. It seems to cut in quite early; that may be resulting in slightly odd skin tones, especially with light caucasian skins. But the overall balance looks like a reasonable compromise given the reality of keeping the sensitivity gains, available filter materials, etc. Sandy And, unless I'm reading it wrong, it apparently looks more like too-green TMax than Agfa APX. Unfortunately Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted May 25, 2012 Share #94 Posted May 25, 2012 I agree. Looking at how the color chart is interpreted in greyscale values, lighter skin tones will be reproduced a tiny bit darker than with T-Max. I doubt if this will be a big deal to many users and I can't recall many worrying about these kinds of differences between mainstream film choices. (I never did.) Maybe that is why some of us chose a film such as Plus X or Tri X and stuck with it for years... because we were comfortable with the familiar look it gave us. This is new but not that different. Um, significantly (as in visibly) darker than TMax which is darker than TriX or Agfa. Still, it's the fact I can't easily change it that bugs me a bit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted May 25, 2012 Share #95 Posted May 25, 2012 The sensitivity graph says there's extended red/IR sensitivity compared to Tri-X. True. But the response starts to fall away earlier on the M Monochrom, so red is going to be a bit odd. The M Monochrom starts cutting at 550 nm, which is green, but still has some response deep into red. Film on the other hand "falls of a cliff" at 650 nm, which is mid red. I haven't drawn the graph, but the M Monochrome probably has relatively less response than film in orange-red, but relatively more in deep red. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted May 25, 2012 Share #96 Posted May 25, 2012 Um, significantly (as in visibly) darker than TMax which is darker than TriX or Agfa. Still, it's the fact I can't easily change it that bugs me a bit They'll have a pink filter soon Actually pale orange so try an 81B though 81EF filter maybe. These are just like skin tones and will slightly darken the complimentary colors and make the skin appear a bit lighter in comparison. In any case there is going to be quite a bit of difference in skin tones for images shot in daylight versus tungsten for instance. The tailing off of red response might be great under warmer tungsten lighting. Daylight varies a lot too. And we are all well aware that many kinds of energy efficient lighting are now employed and these have discontinuous spectral output and will give all kinds of crazy results on skin tones, makeup, and other colors. So if you are shooting film or the MM in existing light at an indoor wedding, and want to have very critical skin tone results, you may need to do some advanced testing just as I did when shooting interiors on 4x5 transparencies. I didn't see anything in that Leica color chart and grey patch sample that specified what lighting they were shot under or what lighting is used on the film charts... presumably daylight equivalent, but I don't know. The T-Max chart says the film was processed in D-76 whereas a lot of people and labs use TMax developer and that will give a different overall characteristic curve... although it should not affect the color sensitivity. So this comparison is limited to this specific case that might not have relevance to the way others shoot and process their film. You can see how the output of the lamp below would present problems. Being able to convert from a color file gives you more of a fighting chance in peculiar situations. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/179525-m9m-spectral-sensitivity/?do=findComment&comment=2023479'>More sharing options...
algrove Posted May 26, 2012 Share #97 Posted May 26, 2012 As folks accumulate experience with the Monochrom Leicas in the wild, I am interested in its ability to cut through atmospheric haze using a red or orange filter, its response to different skin tones, and its response to different colors in follage. The spectral response of the ccd should be a lot different than panchromatic silver hailide films which is typically flat in the visible range with a sharp cut off around 650 nm. Theoretically an unfiltered Monochrom Leica landscape should show a lot of haze due to the extended UV response. The peak in the typcial ccd response is in the green so images of follage should be anomalously light. The question are these theoretical differences significant in real images. I've proceess a lot of my M9 landscapes to simulate the effect of a red or orange filter. Will the Monochrom Leica do significntly better job of cutting through haze than I can do by manipulating my M9 images? Sorry I did not jump in sooner, but the M9M title I thought was something different. Did you read Sean Reids article on the M? He took many shots using various B&W filters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 26, 2012 Share #98 Posted May 26, 2012 Just for interest: MM shot with yellow filter here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/landscape-travel/240234-miami-living-m-monochrome.html#post2082851 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted May 26, 2012 Share #99 Posted May 26, 2012 Just for interest: MM shot with yellow filter here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/landscape-travel/240234-miami-living-m-monochrome.html#post2082851 That's beautiful. Glad I kept my full-range of filters. So- what I want to know... JAAP- will you buy one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 27, 2012 Share #100 Posted May 27, 2012 Errr...when I first got my hands on it and saw the files yes and yes -then wiser council prevailed, rather no as there were other considerations like an upcoming M10 that may well accept R lenses, but then doubt crept in, and rationalizations became possibilities and it is creeping from maybe to yes again..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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