atufte Posted August 9, 2012 Share #381 Posted August 9, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Huh!? Don't you understand what this whole thread with (currently) approx. 380 posts is about in the first place? I am talking about the reasons why someone would order a black-and-white-only digital camera. Sure I have. Oh my Sure they are. But that's not the reason why someone will buy this camera. Or if someone foolishly does then he or she will be disappointed pretty soon and go for the next digital camera very quickly. This camera's raison d'être is not being sharper but being black-and-white. Getting more sharpness/resolution out of the given number of megapixels is a nice bonus but can never be the decisive purchase criterion. I'm buying this camera because it is a dedicated B&W camera which produces high quality B&W images, not because of sharpness, but some might do, and you have no right to say otherwise...you do not have to tell everyone their reason for buying (or not buying) this camera, the most adults i know can think for them selfs and make up their own minds... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 Hi atufte, Take a look here Survey: Your opinion about the new LEICA M MONOCHROM. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
01af Posted August 9, 2012 Share #382 Posted August 9, 2012 It's certainly that way for lenses. Definitely not! Lenses don't need to sacrifice their ability to transmit colours in order to become sharper ... actually, the contrary is true, as sharper lenses also give more accurate colours. Why not cameras? Particularly to one who shoots mostly B&W. Do you actually understand what you just said? Okay ... there are basically two ways to look at the M Monochrom: It offers significantly higher resolution than the M9, which is great but comes at the price of not being able to record colour. It's a genuine B/W camera, no distracting colour that B/W photographers don't want or need anyway ... and has better resolution too. Notion #1 is wrong. Notion #2 is right. As simple as that. So my point is—if notion #1 is your way of looking at the M Monochrom then this camera is not for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted August 9, 2012 Share #383 Posted August 9, 2012 I'm buying it because it will not produce color artifacts that result with color plane interpolation required by images made with a mosaic filter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trond Posted August 9, 2012 Share #384 Posted August 9, 2012 Dear Brian, The M Monocrom will also produce aliasing artifacts just like any other camera without antialiasing filter. But, being B&W, the artifacts will be less visible than with a color camera. Best regards Trond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 9, 2012 Share #385 Posted August 9, 2012 The M Monocrom will also produce aliasing artifacts just like any other camera without antialiasing filter. Luminance moiré is one thing and colour moiré another – both phenomena, while related, have different causes and show up (if they do) at different spatial frequencies. A monochrome sensor cannot produce colour moiré. It isn’t just less visible as it would be if you converted an RGB image containing colour moiré to black and white. Deprived of its rainbow colours the moiré would appear less prominent, but would still be visible – and, more importantly, the detail lost to moiré wouldn’t be recovered. The monochrome sensor, on the other hand, preserves that detail. In theory there could still be luminance moiré (if it had to deal with higher spatial frequencies than those responsible for colour moiré) but as I had explained in LFI a couple of issues ago, this is actually much less of an issue than often believed. With the M Monochrom you can stop worrying about moiré. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trond Posted August 9, 2012 Share #386 Posted August 9, 2012 Dear Michael, I agree that it will be less visible, because the image is monochrome. But Harry Nyquist is still at work, so with a sharp lens like the new APO 50, and no other band-limiting device than the sensor itself, the effect of sub-sampling will be quite visible in certain motifs, like city-scapes and architecture. Regular textured surfaces like roof tiles, window blinds, fences and woven textiles will all show these sub-sampling artifacts with the M Monocrom. But since the image is monochrome, artificial color will of course not be created, so the visible impact of the sub-sampling will be less annoying, but still quite visible. Best regards Trond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 9, 2012 Share #387 Posted August 9, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) But Harry Nyquist is still at work Yes and no … The Nyquist theorem doesn’t tell the whole story as I had explained in LFI 6/2011 (“Limits of Resolution”). Admittedly the article isn’t as clear as I had hoped it would be; it is a translation of the original German language version. Since LFI 7/2011 all my articles have been written in English. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trond Posted August 9, 2012 Share #388 Posted August 9, 2012 Dear Michael, Good old Harry does tell the full story; if there is sub-sampling, artifacts will result. And if there is no sufficient band-limiting; lens, focusing AAF, dirty lens or whatever, it will be visible on any sensor, color or B&W, given the right motif. You just have to select the proper distance according to the lens angle of view, and the artifacts will show up very clearly. They may not be significant in most cases, but will be clearly visible depending on conditions. I believe with the high contrast and high resolution of the APO 50, I think they will be easy to demonstrate also on the M Monocrom. Time will show, when Leica finally get their act together and makes the deliveries. I have will get the first APO 50 that arrives in Norway, then I will do some practical tests. Best regards Trond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted August 9, 2012 Share #389 Posted August 9, 2012 Matched Optics. 1936 Sonnar 5cm F1.5 and a 21st century Monochrome Digital Camera. No worries about aliasing here. Most of my vintage glass will match the M Monochrom quite well. The KAF-18500 monochrome sensor is 72LP/mm. Bayer sites are 2x2, or 36LP/mm. "Roughly" lenses with resolution higher than 36LP/mm but lower than 72LP/mm have the potential to cause color artifacts to appear in the M9 color image but not cause aliasing with the M Monochrom. It will be interesting to test, and I have my FFT code ready. 30 years ago I worked with a dual channel (two monochrome detectors, MWIR and LWIR) sensor which sampled at 2.2 times the resolution of the optics. This was to deal with aliasing. Selecting a lens for the M Monochrom using this logic, ~65LP/mm would be chosen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trond Posted August 9, 2012 Share #390 Posted August 9, 2012 Dear Brian, I agree, and so will my Summarex 85 or Summaron 35. However, if you look at Apo-Summiocron 75, Summilux 50 ASPH and the new APO 50, they all are in the range of 120+ LP/mm. This is one of the very reasons, plus CA, that Leica introduced the APO 50 together with the M M. With older lenses you probably will be better off with doing B&W conversion with the M9, at least you will save money on Yellow and Red filters! Older lenses will just not cut it with the M M, prime glass is needed to utilize the full potential of the M M. Best regards Trond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted August 9, 2012 Share #391 Posted August 9, 2012 Older lenses with lower contrast should prevent intensity clipping with the M Monochrom. And selling off duplicates of duplicates of those old lenses paid for my M Monochrom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted August 9, 2012 Share #392 Posted August 9, 2012 With older lenses you probably will be better off with doing B&W conversion with the M9, at least you will save money on Yellow and Red filters! Older lenses will just not cut it with the M M, prime glass is needed to utilize the full potential of the M M. Dear Trond, I enjoy using those filters, prefer "Optical Pre-Processing" to digital post-processing. I also just like the rendering of those old lenses. The M9 and M Monochrom will fit nicely into the same compartment bag. If Leica comes out with an M Infrared-Monochrom, I'll buy it and the 50APO for work. It will go nicely with the Pentax 85/4.5 Ultra-Achromatic. But for personal use- the Monochrom and classic glass for me. Also, going by the 2.2x oversampling of lens resolution, we'll need a 72mpixel 24mmx36mm monochrome detector array for the 50APO. It will be interesting to see your tests. I am just happy that Leica is coming out with this camera. It's been a long time since anyone else has produced a commercial monochrome camera, and my current one is 20 years old. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 9, 2012 Share #393 Posted August 9, 2012 Good old Harry does tell the full story; if there is sub-sampling, artifacts will result. Well, I’ve told where you can find my argument why it isn’t quite as simple. I won’t spoil it by giving away the ending here in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 10, 2012 Share #394 Posted August 10, 2012 +1 Dear Trond, I enjoy using those filters, prefer "Optical Pre-Processing" to digital post-processing. I also just like the rendering of those old lenses. The M9 and M Monochrom will fit nicely into the same compartment bag. If Leica comes out with an M Infrared-Monochrom, I'll buy it and the 50APO for work. It will go nicely with the Pentax 85/4.5 Ultra-Achromatic. But for personal use- the Monochrom and classic glass for me. Also, going by the 2.2x oversampling of lens resolution, we'll need a 72mpixel 24mmx36mm monochrome detector array for the 50APO. It will be interesting to see your tests. I am just happy that Leica is coming out with this camera. It's been a long time since anyone else has produced a commercial monochrome camera, and my current one is 20 years old. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trond Posted August 10, 2012 Share #395 Posted August 10, 2012 Dear Trond, I enjoy using those filters, prefer "Optical Pre-Processing" to digital post-processing. I also just like the rendering of those old lenses. The M9 and M Monochrom will fit nicely into the same compartment bag. If Leica comes out with an M Infrared-Monochrom, I'll buy it and the 50APO for work. It will go nicely with the Pentax 85/4.5 Ultra-Achromatic. But for personal use- the Monochrom and classic glass for me. Also, going by the 2.2x oversampling of lens resolution, we'll need a 72mpixel 24mmx36mm monochrome detector array for the 50APO. It will be interesting to see your tests. I am just happy that Leica is coming out with this camera. It's been a long time since anyone else has produced a commercial monochrome camera, and my current one is 20 years old. Dear Brian, I love those old lenses too! My Summarex 85 version 5 and Summilux 50, and Summicrom 50 both version 1 all draw wonderfully on the M9, and make for beautiful B&W conversions not needing the M M resoultion. I think the M M and the APO 50 will be in a league on it´s own, only pity that my order changed from delivery 1st of September to 1st of October yesterday. I guess Leica is running a bit late in production... Best regards Trond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trond Posted August 10, 2012 Share #396 Posted August 10, 2012 Well, I’ve told where you can find my argument why it isn’t quite as simple. I won’t spoil it by giving away the ending here in this thread. Dear Michael, I have read your article (again), and I can see that we totally agree. There will be luminance amplitude modulation much before you get to the Nyquist limit. I have successfully used this method on several M9s to identify several dead columns or rows on camera sensors. I feed the sensor a uniform grid at 1/4 to 1/3 the Nyquist frequency at a slightingly tilted angle, and I get luminance modulation all over the place, and the dead columns or rows, practically stands out very clearly, due to the effects you describe in your article. Best regards Trond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular Posted December 27, 2013 Share #397 Posted December 27, 2013 An advantage of the absence of a Bayer matrix that I have not read yet is the bypass of a demosaicing stage during the image post-processing. It means that there should be a more pleasing progression from blur to sharp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billo101 Posted December 28, 2013 Share #398 Posted December 28, 2013 Best Leica ever. Inviato da mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted December 28, 2013 Share #399 Posted December 28, 2013 Dear Brian, I agree, and so will my Summarex 85 or Summaron 35. However, if you look at Apo-Summiocron 75, Summilux 50 ASPH and the new APO 50, they all are in the range of 120+ LP/mm. This is one of the very reasons, plus CA, that Leica introduced the APO 50 together with the M M. With older lenses you probably will be better off with doing B&W conversion with the M9, at least you will save money on Yellow and Red filters! Older lenses will just not cut it with the M M, prime glass is needed to utilize the full potential of the M M. Best regards Trond I have the M9, M240 and Monochrom and all of my Leica lenses back to the 1.0/50 Noctilux (v3) show increased resolution & sharpness. Regardless, your argument is somewhat limited in that it only refers to sharpness and resolution, not the camera's increased dynamic range and beautiful tonal range from which all lenses benefit. The Monochrom is the favourite of my three digital Leicas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
platypus Posted December 28, 2013 Share #400 Posted December 28, 2013 This post is completely hilarious! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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