28 summicron vs elmarit, is 1 stop worth more than $1000?

[gniquil]

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Hi All,

 

I am considering between the summicron and elmarit. Do you think it's worth it to get the faster version. No I am not bill gates or zukerberg, so money is an issue.

 

I often like to shoot at night. With my current skill, I can comfortably hold my m9 at 1/30 or maybe 1/24. Also personally I think 1250 is about highest I am willing to go (1600 only if I am super desperate). So what do you think?

 

Small, light, 2.8, $2000 vs large heavy, 2.0, $3500?

 

Frank

[likalar]

Good question. Before you decide, shoot some raw images with a lens you now own at even higher ISO, process them in the latest Photoshop raw converter with excellent noise reduction. The results might convince you to get the slower lens, up the ISO when necessary, and use that extra $1500 on a new computer or a trip.

 

I have a 2.8 Elmarit M and love it, but have never tried the faster lens. For me, my budget, and the type of shots I've done lately, the slower lens is just great! Good luck.

Larry

[andalus]

I just sold my 28 Summi for more than list price. Now just have the M9 and the 50 Lux asph. Waiting for a Nikon D800e and a zoom from B&H. I guess I want to try a dslr. Never had one. If I ever need the 28 M again, I'd go for the 2.8 version.

[sblutter]

I assume you're talking about a 28mm lens

 

There wont be much difference visually - go for the 2.8 - upgrade when you win the lottery

 

And the 2.8 should be lighter in weight

[Jeff S]

Small, light, 2.8, $2000 vs large heavy, 2.0, $3500?

 

More like 'extremely' small and light versus 'merely' small and light. After owning SLR and MF systems, most Leica lenses are tiny by comparison.

 

I own the 28 Summicron and find it very well balanced on the M8.2, with minimal intrusion in the VF with an alternate hood (Heavystar or 35 Summilux hood).

 

But, both lenses are excellent (with the Elmarit perhaps a bit more contrasty out of camera according to some), so no sweat if you choose the somewhat slower version, particularly given PP capabilities of modern software like LR4 or PS.

 

Jeff

[Jamie Roberts]

Sorry--going to say a word or two in defence of the 28 Summicron ASPH, here...

 

First, apart from being a faster lens, the Summicron has a totally different contrast signature than the Elmarit, especially wide open, where the Elmarit does not go. Next, the extra stop is not just about light gathering but also what little amounts of bokeh you would get with a 28mm lens. More importantly, the colour is also not quite the same. Taken together, not only *is* there an optical difference in the results, it's actually quite a large difference.

 

But the contrast signature is the largest difference, and don't forget it's often harder to soften contrast in post than it is to add contrast in post So I sold my 28 Elmarit ASPH; it's one of the only Leica M lenses I've sold that I haven't bought again.

 

I love the 28 Summicron; it's a real gem in the whole line-up in terms of its overall qualities, despite its size. There's no other 28mm lens out there quite like it. Once I sold it too, because I thought having a 24 Elmarit APSH and a 35 Summilux ASPH along with it would do what I wanted. But in the end, the 24 Elmarit went and I re-acquired the 28 Summicron.

 

Having said that, there's nothing wrong with the newest 28 Elmarit either. But to me the difference in results quality has been worth the extra cost.

[Jeff S]

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In the end I made the same choice as Jamie, for much the same reasons. The 28 Summicron asph is a special lens and I use it often with the 50 Summilux asph on my M8.2s. (In fact, one reason I haven't moved to the M9 is that I like the 28 Summicron asph better than my 35 Summicron asph.) But many people get fantastic results with the Elmarit, so I just wanted to reassure the OP that choosing the Elmarit is not an inferior option, sticklers like me notwithstanding.

 

Jeff

[macusque]

Didn't try any 2.8 version on my M9 but I bought a used 28 Summicron and while at first I liked the images on the LCD (nice drawing with a sense of depth), I really didn't find them anything special on my big NEC at home.

Contrast was not very high, which to me is a nice thing though especially with the M9, and sharpness wasn't great at any aperture. Bokeh was also so-so.

I've seen many great images taken with that lens and I tend to agree with Jamie, but my sample was probably somewhat defective or simply a bad sample (difficult to believe with Leica, maybe I had to send in for checking but I wasn't in the mood to do it) so I sold it, luckily without loosing any cent.

 

Ok, maybe my post is the least helpful... sorry:p

[steve_l]

Yes, it is worth it.....if you ever shoot in dim light and like wide angle, or shoot inside, where light is always iffy and wide angle is required....and it is just a better lens, as people have pointed out.

 

My lens kit now is a 28 Summicron and a 28-25-50 Tri-Elmar - one inside lens, and one outside lens...had a lot more but these cover the bases and don't take much space...

[Hariseldon]

I like my 28 Summicron and a good combo with the 50 Lux Asph.

 

If the additional cost is an issue then the 2.8 will be fine.

 

At 50mm, the lux is worth saving up for ..........the extra stop is worth it.

 

The M9 is pretty damn good at 1250iso, just don't underexpose. If you have to go to 2500 its not that bad ... The noise is pretty much like grain, may not look great at 100% but in print it's fine, easy to forget!

[lct]

I like both. The Elmarit asph is a bit more contrasty with a slightly harsher bokeh. I bring it always in my bag due to its tiny size i must say The Summicron is mostly great at f/2 which is really a working aperture where sharp corners are not mandatory. If you don't need f/2 i don't see serious reasons to use it though. Now remember that f/2 will give you not only more light but also more bokeh.

[gniquil]

Hi All,

 

Thanks for all the replies. It's funny how many of us are glued to this forum. Anyway, I decided on the elmarit.

 

One more thing though (and please don't take what i said personally), I don't think bokeh is all that important. In fact, I am very disappointed that bokeh has become such a big "thing" among so many of us (yes myself included when i first started on my leica). In my opinion, bokeh only shows off 2 things:

 

1. that whoever took the photo has some expensive gear ('cause this requires large aperture and big sensor/film)

2. that most likely, the person who took the photo is a lazy or not skillful enough (here i just offended everyone in this forum). Why i think this way? Because as i grow as a photographer, i find that composition with a singular subject is much easier than otherwise. Look at all the award winning pictures, very few have bokeh the way a summilux shows when the subject is only 1m away. Most of them shows interesting play in terms of lighting, subjects and backgrounds, and etc.

 

Anyway, gotta go now. Sorry about the words coming out as harsh. But it's just what i think.

[CalArts 99]

If you're making interesting images, then the content will overcome the nuanced differences between the two lenses. The viewer won't care and won't be asking you which lens you used (unless they are a Leica owner )

 

The differences already mentioned here between the two lenses (esp the contrast) are very real if you're a pixel peeper and a gear head.

 

And the USD1000 difference is also very real. It may not seem like much once it's spent but imagine carrying USD1000 in your pocket every day. And it could also buy you a few nice exhibition Lightjet prints, among other things.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

 

The differences already mentioned here between the two lenses (esp the contrast) are very real if you're a pixel peeper and a gear head.

{snipped}

 

Or if you're concerned about the difficulty and extra prep you need to do in post with one lens over another, over hundreds of shots at a time.

 

Or if you need the extra stop.

 

Or if--some truly weird comments here notwithstanding--you like some separation of your subject from the background with a wide angle lens. There's a reason for MF folks. Fast lenses on a 35 sensor make sense for the same reasons

 

Even if you're not a gear head or pixel peeper.

[CalArts 99]

Just for the record, by snipping someone's post you take things they've said out of context.

[Peter H]

If you're making interesting images, then the content will overcome the nuanced differences between the two lenses. The viewer won't care and won't be asking you which lens you used (unless they are a Leica owner )

 

The differences already mentioned here between the two lenses (esp the contrast) are very real if you're a pixel peeper and a gear head.

 

And the USD1000 difference is also very real. It may not seem like much once it's spent but image carrying USD1000 in your pocket every day. And it could also buy you a few nice exhibition Lightjet prints, among other things.

 

All of which is true, but applies equally to virtually all lens comparisons.

 

The 28mm Summicron is one of the very best lenses I have ever used, and in my experience is unique in this focal length. And it is a fantastic match for a 50mm Summilux.

 

The 2.8 is superb too, but they are different, and the differences in such fine lenses deserve to be evaluated on more than price, size and speed, unless they are your paramount considerations.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

1. that whoever took the photo has some expensive gear ('cause this requires large aperture and big sensor/film)

2. that most likely, the person who took the photo is a lazy or not skillful enough (here i just offended everyone in this forum). Why i think this way? Because as i grow as a photographer, i find that composition with a singular subject is much easier than otherwise. Look at all the award winning pictures, very few have bokeh the way a summilux shows when the subject is only 1m away. Most of them shows interesting play in terms of lighting, subjects and backgrounds, and etc. {snipped}

 

Impersonally, then:

1. not much is cheaper these days than large or medium format film. It's got nothing to do with money or expensive gear per se, though there are always those who use it to show that, I suppose
   
2. I have no idea what you mean by "singular subject" in the context of composition or in the context of your post. But a fast aperture / large format sensor or film size simply gives you one more creative dimension to use--or not--as you're skilled in doing it. A bad picture of a cat at f1 is still a bad picture. A fabulous picture of a cat at f1 is still a fabulous picture. Both, however, will separate its focus point from whatever else is there. The bad picture, though, exists to show the lens characteristic; the fabulous picture exists to draw your eye to the focus point to some photographic and meaningful purpose.
   
3. award winning pictures have all kinds of focus elements. Some of them are full of depth, some are not.
   

[Jamie Roberts]

Just for the record, by snipping someone's post you take things they've said out of context.

 

Yes, it's sort of like focus, and it's necessary in a threaded discussion. But when there's enough context it's fair and good practice. It's called attribution .

 

By the way, if you don't want to be caught off-guard when people to do it, don't imply that people who make different choices than you are "gear-heads" or "pixel-peepers."

[CalArts 99]

All of which is true, but applies equally to virtually all lens comparisons.

 

The 28mm Summicron is one of the very best lenses I have ever used, and in my experience is unique in this focal length. And it is a fantastic match for a 50mm Summilux.

 

The 2.8 is superb too, but they are different, and the differences in such fine lenses deserve to be evaluated on more than price, size and speed, unless they are your paramount considerations.

 

Which was my point. The audience will not be concerned. The image's content will transcend those nuances in the context of viewing the image. But as 'pixel peepers,' gear heads,' and 'Leica owners' etc., we certainly see the differences. And as I posted, the differences are very real. Nuanced, but real.

 

'Pixel peeper' and 'gear head' are not necessarily derogatory. Think of them as terms of endearment.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[CalArts 99]

Jamie, see my above post....

 

(btw, I have the Summicron myself.)