robsteve Posted March 18, 2007 Share #141 Posted March 18, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dale--what a story! I hope Leica fixes your problem soon. For those of us in Canada, if I thought something like that was out with my lenses, I'd call Kindermann Canada--they've been fixing M stuff for ever and are very, very good. I'm waiting nervously to see how Tim did. I sure hope his 35 isn't suffering from the same thing as yours, Dale! They will also work on American lenses and cameras too. Their turn around is very quick, probably much less than the time it takes to get a lens into the repair system in Solms or NJ. Kindemann used to be the Leica distributer in Canada and has all the specialized tools. They are also the Canadian warranty depot for Leica NJ. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 18, 2007 Posted March 18, 2007 Hi robsteve, Take a look here Very interesting answer from Leica on 35mm 1.4. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
robsteve Posted March 18, 2007 Share #142 Posted March 18, 2007 The problem with my lenses, and probably yours, is that the lens element assemblies are not positioned correctly in relation to the helicoids. How can that be fixed? The position of the lens element assembly, in relation to the helicoid, is controlled by interchangeable shims. Simply, change the shims to the proper value! The lens then will focus properly, the rangefinder will still provide co-incident images at infinity, and all your other lenses will focus properly. Dale Dale: I wouldn't spend to much time trying to figure out the shim distance, but just call Kindermann and ship the problem lenses off to them. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstotler Posted March 18, 2007 Share #143 Posted March 18, 2007 Also a mac dashboard DOF widget here; DOFC - Depth of Field Calculator - Dashboard - Calculate & Convert Wilson Thanks! Great little widget. -Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share #144 Posted March 18, 2007 Tim, I hope you get everything going the way you want it to very soon. Dale Thanks Dale, and I appreciate your considered response. However, I don't think I will be getting things the way I want them. I now believe that, as Solms has said and as my experience has consistently shown, Leica's two 35mm lenses are not safe bedmates with an M8. I'm ordering a Zeiss tomorrow and will try to live with guess focus on the 35 cron because when it does achieve focus, it delivers extremely well. We live in an age of expensive compromises to achieve top quality. I did some further tests this evening and found that at my new RF adjustment and tested at 1 metre, my 50 lux and 90 macro are sharp and perfect throughout with the point of selected focus right at the back at max aperture. My 35 Cron (please note, this one is a cron not a lux, I sent both 35 luxes back) is improved but off, and my 24 elmarit is alright-ish but frankly a bit off and as others have noted, more off on the left of frame than the right. I'm not going to go the shims-and-manuals route, I need to take some shots for real now... but I will try some Zeiss and CV glass and report back! Best Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share #145 Posted March 18, 2007 Dale--what a story! I hope Leica fixes your problem soon. For those of us in Canada, if I thought something like that was out with my lenses, I'd call Kindermann Canada--they've been fixing M stuff for ever and are very, very good. I'm waiting nervously to see how Tim did. I sure hope his 35 isn't suffering from the same thing as yours, Dale! Jamie, the wait is over... read a few posts up the thread for a fairly detailed result: better than I expected if not as good as I'd hoped! I think there really is an issue with the Leica 35mm lenses and I hereby offer you an infinitude of beers for that 35 lux, even if the silver ones do weigh a bit more! :-) Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share #146 Posted March 18, 2007 I am lost !!!! Tim detailed tweaking experience proves what I said since I wrote my first post in this thread. Tweaking will affect all lenses!! So the decision is basically which lense do I use most, tweak for this one and do guess focusing on the rest.... no quite Leica's image I had. Other option... bye to my Lux35 and get a new Elmarit 28 designed for the M8. As Leica has stopped the 75lux I would not be surprised to see a new 35 soon (that maybe to years in Leica time scale) Could anyone tell me if they have focus problems with the following lenses as I do need to use some kind of lens on my M8 and opinions would be welcome before buying lenses. Elmarit 28 Cron 75 Tri-Elmar 28-35-50 Cron 50 Thanks to all, and Tim Eric Hi Eric, a (hopefully) useful word of advice: the man from Solms, who has seen my Venice shots (follow the zenfolio link bottom) told me that whilst the 28 would give accurate focus on the M8, the results would not be as good as the lux when focus was achieved. I believe him. The lux, when you guess focus correctly, delivers stunning results! Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share #147 Posted March 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am uneasy about adjusting the camera to fix a problem with a lens. As a number of people have pointed out, adjusting the camera will affect its operation with all lenses to varying degrees. It would be far better to adjust the camera to an absolute standard and then all lenses separately to the same standard. One of the issues they faced with the M8 design was that the lens is mounted forwards of the body compared to an M7 to make space for the sensor/LCD package at the back. They therefore had to move the pivot point for the roller forwards by the same amount and adjust the geometry of the rangefinder so that the relationship between the position of the roller relative to the lens mount and the rangefinder focussing distance exactly matches that of the film cameras and the basis then for all M lenses made to date. Question is, how well did they do? I am wondering just how closely the relationship matches that on a film body even in a camera which is supposedly adjusted correctly . Lenses exploit that relationship through the profile of the focussing cam so that if they are no longer working to the same standard, focussing will be out. I think there's a real need to be able to check the range finder independently of any lenses - a lens mount which sets the roller to infinity one way and 0.7m when turned through 180 degrees would help users decide if their camera or lenses are at fault. I couldn't agree more Mark. I am actually somewhat pleased with the results of this experiment in that I now know confidently how to use the Allen key without provoking meltdown, and I have in my head a safe methodology which is to take your best and most used lens (my 50 lux is both) and adjust the RF so that at widest aperture the subject at 1 meter is in great focus at the back of the narrow DOF range. Everything else follows well (for me at least) on other lenses. The 50 lux is improved, the 90 macro is improved, both now spot on (and I thought they were before!) and the 35 cron is improved but not right. The 24 elmarit is almost there but I never trusted it anyway... Moral: tweak one, tweak all. There is no easy answer. If most of your lenses are in and the minority are out then the minority may be tweakable individually but not via RF adjustment. Blimey, and I thought I was just buying a camera! Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 19, 2007 Share #148 Posted March 19, 2007 {snipped}Upshot. Whilst I am very grateful to those here who have given me guidance and support on this, I remain convinced that what Solms told me was correct: the 35 lux and cron were designed for film Ms and do not work happily on the M8, exhibiting a characteristic of backfocus which is exacerbated by the crop factor and greater demands of digital. Tim, I don't know how I missed your initial post!! Anyway, I'm glad the experiment did no harm, at least, and even happier that your 90 and 50 are actually better But I'm still a bit suspect of the 35, since all we're back to is "mine is chrome and yours is not" now. That's an answer I didn't want to hear at all, while I'm lining up to maybe buy a Noctilux. One other thing intrigues me, though... My 24 is right on the money... no difference between "right and left" sides. Is that even possible without the mount being off? See, I still think there's something very funny going on there. They *cannot* have modified the M8 such that, say, a 35mm lens doesn't work but 28mm and 50mms do, can they? So the beer's still on me, Tim! Though now no amount of beers will convince me to part with my darling 35 chrome, since she's all but magic or something Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share #149 Posted March 19, 2007 Tim, I don't know how I missed your initial post!! Anyway, I'm glad the experiment did no harm, at least, and even happier that your 90 and 50 are actually better But I'm still a bit suspect of the 35, since all we're back to is "mine is chrome and yours is not" now. That's an answer I didn't want to hear at all, while I'm lining up to maybe buy a Noctilux. One other thing intrigues me, though... My 24 is right on the money... no difference between "right and left" sides. Is that even possible without the mount being off? See, I still think there's something very funny going on there. They *cannot* have modified the M8 such that, say, a 35mm lens doesn't work but 28mm and 50mms do, can they? So the beer's still on me, Tim! Though now no amount of beers will convince me to part with my darling 35 chrome, since she's all but magic or something You and your magic 35. It's like walking into a bar and seeing another guy with a girl who should be mine! The 24 elmarit's ok, just not great. It's an elmarit and I've had a lot of shots with it that have been very cool, it just doesn't pass the torture test and others have reported that wide open it is soft on the left. I suspect this has something to do with a mildly canted positioning of the camera with respect to subject and will test more when I have my breath back... In the meantime Jamie: a) Thank you for being incredibly helpful. As you said yesterday, 'God I love this forum'! The 35's are off. Trust me. You got lucky with some sweet spot and I envy you but hey, the good guys get that sort of luck! :-) Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share #150 Posted March 19, 2007 See, I still think there's something very funny going on there. They *cannot* have modified the M8 such that, say, a 35mm lens doesn't work but 28mm and 50mms do, can they? I think it's down to the fact that the design of the two 35s is different - can't remember exactly how but it relates to floating elements used to get lenses that wide with big max apertures and asph distortion correction without being huge. My summation is that it worked for film Ms and not for M8s. Still: we all need some unsolved mysteries in life! Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
californiajay Posted March 19, 2007 Share #151 Posted March 19, 2007 Hi TimI insist that there is absolutely no reason not to keep your wonderful summilux, and that the informed person at Solms is not so informed. For the lens to stay within focus range at all distances, it must be regulated to frontfocus a little at full aperture, to compensate for the focus shift closing it, and this is a very simple adjustment to perform either on the lens or the camera,wichever apply. The accurate test that follows, notwhistanding the fact that it is performed with the cron asph, is largely applicable to the general case, being performed at 70cm against your at 1m,so obtaining the same starting depth of field at full aperture. (all can be said against Leica, but not that theyr engineers designed and put on the market a lens that is by project unable to focus correctly. Quality control is another matter) Images are from f2 to f8 Best regards, Sergio To me, it does not look like the lens is back focusing as it is stopped down but rather that it is just sharpest when shot at F4. Remember that as you stop down, DOF increases more towards the rear than the front (1/3 2/3 rule) so the rear SHOULD look different. However if you look at just the point of focus, it get slightly sharper as it approaches F4 and then fades again. The lens is performing its best at F4, that's all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted March 19, 2007 Share #152 Posted March 19, 2007 Saying in advance that I am not nearly technically as able as you guys I would like to post at least some experiences. The Zeiss 35 is no easier to focus than the Leica cron. Perhaps the lux is a bit more difficult but I didn't find it "off the chart." Both the Zeiss and the Leica cron work very well and I find my lux very good indeed. Maybe I am missing something or maybe I have a great copy........hard to tell. But I would not give up my lux and I love my cron as well. Different renderings but both great lenses. Tim, if you would like to conduct some experiments with the Zeiss 35 I would be happy to loan mine to you on behalf of all the members of the forum who may benefit from your research. Just Pm me so we can make the appropriate arrangements Woody Spedden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 19, 2007 Share #153 Posted March 19, 2007 Woody--dumb question, I know--is your 35 lux black or chrome? (shaking my head now and muttering "that cannot be right").... Tim--thanks for the kind words. I'm hoping a 35 chrome lux is hiding somewhere in a second-hand shop near you, and you'll stumble over it amid some other cheap-ish camera stuff.... Anyway, I am glad the 50 lux is better than before, and that the 35 cron is at least somewhat better! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted March 19, 2007 Share #154 Posted March 19, 2007 I recently tried the 24 Elmarit Asph, and it was sharp as tacks all over the image. I would send that copy back for adjustment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share #155 Posted March 19, 2007 Hi Carsten, To be honest I've never had a problem with the elmarit 24. It has never felt as razor sharp as the 50 lux but that is acknowledged to be a great lens. I have had a lot of nice shots from the 24 and don't think there's a problem with it but I will give it a further test out with my new calibration when the weather becomes pleasant enough to step outside! Afer yesterday's extravaganza, I never want to see a test chart again! Best Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smgorsch Posted March 19, 2007 Share #156 Posted March 19, 2007 Greetings, Thinking about purchasing a 90mm --- has anyone experienced focussing issues with any of these? Is there much discernible difference between the 'cron, Elmarit and Macro in focussing accuracy? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 19, 2007 Share #157 Posted March 19, 2007 Greetings, Thinking about purchasing a 90mm --- has anyone experienced focussing issues with any of these? Is there much discernible difference between the 'cron, Elmarit and Macro in focussing accuracy? Thanks Stefan, I am using an Elmarit-M 90mm. I dug deep and bought a new 1.25 Leica VF magnifier (about half the cost of the second hand EM90). I find I struggle a bit to focus without the magnifier but have no problems with it on. There are cheap copies of the magnifier around but I suspect you get what you pay for. The Leica one is a beautifully engineered piece of kit, with a metal 'snake' chain and its own little fitted leather case to go on the camera strap. I am delighted with the Elmarit-M 90. It works very well with the M8. With the high quality image you get from the M8, you can easily crop to get the effect of a 200mm+ lens. The lens itself is very neat with a built in sliding lens hood. There is no shortage of these around second hand and even new, they are very good value, being cheaper than the equivalent Zeiss, the Sonnar 85mm, which has got a mixed press. The CV 90 APO Lanthar gets good reports and is very competitively priced even if you have to buy an LTM to M adapter. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share #158 Posted March 20, 2007 I got my new CV1.5 35mm pancake lens this morning as an attempt at finding a lens of this focal length that focusses well, and this lead to a little more testing and observations of the 35 Cron that I refer to in many of the above threads. The good news is that the CV does focus correctly at all F stops, though like the 35 cron (and no other lens I have!) at f4 the point of focus does shift a touch backwards, making the subject very slightly softer. Not OOF as on the Cron, just a touch softer. I'll make a new thread for the CV when I've tested it and used it real world some more. But in the meantime I have discovered the weirdest thing about the cron. All my test shots were done with the ruler method. As you all know by now ;-) the Cron and the 35 lux I sent back lose focus on the subject as they are stopped down, worst in the f2.8 thru 5.6 range. Now, in these tests, the ruler is centre frame, since that's where I focus. But I noticed today that away from the centre, things just IN FRONT of and at the same plane as the point of selected focus move into BETTER focus as I stop into the f2.8 to f5.6 range. In other words, DOF behaves very differently away from the centre, and more as I would expect. So here are two shots of the infamous bird box, both taken at F4. In the first one, I focussed on the bird box and then took the shot with it at centre frame. About twenty five feet away. As usual with the 35 cron, the subject is OOF at F4 but the garage (cropped out here) behind it is in perfect focus. In the second shot, I framed and focussed exactly as before, locked exposure and then without moving or touching the focus, I re-framed so as to place the box about 1/3 of the way in from the bottom left hand corner. Voila! It is in focus! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Now I thought that all those shots of buildings where the centre was fuzzy but the edges were sharp was caused by the fact that the edges are further away and therefore in the zone of backfocussed accuracy. But the bird box never lies: it is at exactly the same distance whether in the centre of the frame or the edge, since I reframed. And it is sharp in the second shot. Sharp enough for me... In other words the degree of bacfocuss of the 35 cron on an M8 depends not just on aperture but also on where the subject is in the frame. As I said at the top of this post: curiouser and curiouser... Tim Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Now I thought that all those shots of buildings where the centre was fuzzy but the edges were sharp was caused by the fact that the edges are further away and therefore in the zone of backfocussed accuracy. But the bird box never lies: it is at exactly the same distance whether in the centre of the frame or the edge, since I reframed. And it is sharp in the second shot. Sharp enough for me... In other words the degree of bacfocuss of the 35 cron on an M8 depends not just on aperture but also on where the subject is in the frame. As I said at the top of this post: curiouser and curiouser... Tim ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/17461-very-interesting-answer-from-leica-on-35mm-14/?do=findComment&comment=206675'>More sharing options...
egibaud Posted March 20, 2007 Share #159 Posted March 20, 2007 Well as I told Tim in a private message. I am changing my Lux35 tomorrow. It is pointless to have my RF tweaked if it means modifying how other lenses work. I would do it if I had 2 bodies and keep one for Lux 35 only. I have tested lenses with a friend (Artemio) and it helped me make the decision. Instead of the 35Lux, I am getting a Cron50 and an Elmarit 90 tomorrow. I am on a waiting list for the new Elmarit 28 and a CV15 (with a 21mm finder). I think with 15, 28, 50 and 90 I'll be covering quite a bit of angles. I lose speed, but what do I need speed for if I cannot focus precisely? I think it is sad to read that a CV35mm focuses better on the M8 than a Cron35.... that's an expensive red dot for such a result. Thank you to everybody for testing focus. I'll let you know the results I get with my new equipment. Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 20, 2007 Share #160 Posted March 20, 2007 Tim-- This is truly through the looking-glass... So let's recap... You've got an Elmarit that is sharper on one side than the other, and a Cron that is fuzzy in the middle but sharp at the edges for the same distance. Logically, there's only one possible conclusion. You, my friend, have a defective camera or the lenses need lens adjustments. I personally don't believe the sensor is be aligned with the mount properly--OR all the lenses need to be tweaked by someone who knows them. The fact that the 90 and 50 focus is luck. We're talking about something being off by a minute amount (and I'd check the frame edges for the 50 and 90 wide open, too... you may find they're not as sharp as they should be...) My elmarit is sharp all over the field. We already know about my 35. And how, pray, can a 35 CV "focus better" than a cron or a lux? I think that actually nails it--something is very wrong here. @ Eric--fixing the focus on the RF doesn't make it worse for other lenses, unless those lenses need adjustment to begin with. So don't give up on the 35s; many of us use them without problem! As for my own tiny front focussing 75 Lux, I will eventually take it into Kindermann with the body and get it tweaked. But since I can live with it the way it is, it might be a long time before I do that! Tim--I wish there was some old Leica know-it-alls close to you. There must be a UK repair depot for M, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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