S2, SF58 TTL-HSS Mode & PocketWizard©

[wbabbott3]

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I am new to radio controlled flash and wonder if PocketWizard© products (Plus II or other) can be used to fire an SF58 flash in the TTL-HSS mode from an S2?

 

I note that a couple of Nikon cables can be used to connect an S2 to an SF58 because the Leica and Nikon pin assignments are said to be the same.

 

Does this mean that PocketWizards made for Nikons will operate with the Leica S2 & SF58, replacing the cable, as it were?

 

Thanks in advance for help and advice.

 

Bill

[stephan_w]

I am new to radio controlled flash and wonder if PocketWizard© products (Plus II or other) can be used to fire an SF58 flash in the TTL-HSS mode from an S2?

 

no

 

the Nikon system is not compatible to anything what Leica produces, besides the simple trigger in the hotshoe. So no TTL, and especially no HSS-TTL. You have to use the Leica SF58 for this.

 

What you can do with the PW is to trigger in manual mode, this works well and I use it constantly with 4 Nikonflashes (SB900). What you will need is a good lightmeter like the Seconic 758 DR. That's a perfect combo IMHO. But no HSS either (as Leica disables the hot-shoe trigger for times shoter than 125/s. We have to wait for the CS-lenses for shoter exposures.

[wbabbott3]

Stephan,

Thank you very much; your comment helps define the problem.

Now I'll have to find out if it is possible to wirelessly connect the SF58 to the S2 in order to use TTL-HSS, since the S2-SF58 combo does not support plain TTL.

Thanks again,

 

Bill

[stephan_w]

Bill

 

as far as I know there is actually no solution for wireless TTL-HSS. They wouldnt have to make all the fuzz about the CS-Lenses then..

 

Also, even if there were such a solution, I think this would be very demanding for the flashes. The S2 needs a lot of light, and HSS is reducing noticable the power output of a flash (as it splits it over time)

 

IMHO you have two options:

 

1) Experiment with the SF58 in TTL-HSS using the small flash and bouncing the big flash somewhere on a wall or ceiling or reflector. At least for portrait work this is a usable variant (even if HSS is not really needed for portrait work)

 

2) Buy yourself a radiotransmitter (like the PW but there are also cheaper ones) and some good older flashes (for example some older Nikons that you can get cheap now) and invest the spared money in a flash light meter with radio control. This will give you much better results than any TTL (but no HSS, of course)

[wbabbott3]

Stephan,

 

Thanks again.

 

Suggestion 1: I have been an inveterate flash "bouncer" for many years, beginning with an R4 with a Vivitar 283 and various ways of reflecting and deflecting the flash. The swivel on the Metz 54 and now the SF58 help a lot, but if and only if there is something off of which to bounce the flash, which I don't always have. I know how to do that.

 

I do have a small slave flash, a Metz 34, which works well in its single manual mode with the main flash on-camera or off-camera, as long as it can see the main flash.

 

Suggestion 2: Let me say again why this quest is about HSS. I'm not after high speed, as in sports photography, but simply a way of using S2 TTL technology that can account for all light coming through the lens.

 

With the SF58, that means TTL-HSS because plain SF58 TTL mode does not work with the S2. There may indeed be flashes that do work with S2 in their TTL modes but the SF58 is not one of them. It maybe that I will have to abandon the SF58 to get what I want. That is a real possibility.

 

Grafting Nikon TTL technology onto an S2 is clearly outside of anything I have contemplated. Off hand, I see no apparent reason why old Nikon flashes (or other flashes) using a flash-light-meter to control them would give better results than "any TTL."

 

What I still want is simply an off-camera flash that uses the TTL sensors in the S2 and not the sensors in the flash, as in the Automatic Mode. I can do that now with any of the radio units that simply replace sa cable to send the firing signal from the S2 to one or many flashes, the SF58 included.

 

Conceptually, I would like to have a radio channel to mimic (and replace) the connection between the S2's flash shoe and the foot of the SF58 so that I can use the SF58's TTL-HSS mode with the S2. It is that simple and that complex.

 

All the best,

 

Bill

[mwilliamsphotography]

Stephan,

 

Thanks again.

 

Suggestion 1: I have been an inveterate flash "bouncer" for many years, beginning with an R4 with a Vivitar 283 and various ways of reflecting and deflecting the flash. The swivel on the Metz 54 and now the SF58 help a lot, but if and only if there is something off of which to bounce the flash, which I don't always have. I know how to do that.

 

I do have a small slave flash, a Metz 34, which works well in its single manual mode with the main flash on-camera or off-camera, as long as it can see the main flash.

 

Suggestion 2: Let me say again why this quest is about HSS. I'm not after high speed, as in sports photography, but simply a way of using S2 TTL technology that can account for all light coming through the lens.

 

With the SF58, that means TTL-HSS because plain SF58 TTL mode does not work with the S2. There may indeed be flashes that do work with S2 in their TTL modes but the SF58 is not one of them. It maybe that I will have to abandon the SF58 to get what I want. That is a real possibility.

 

Grafting Nikon TTL technology onto an S2 is clearly outside of anything I have contemplated. Off hand, I see no apparent reason why old Nikon flashes (or other flashes) using a flash-light-meter to control them would give better results than "any TTL."

 

What I still want is simply an off-camera flash that uses the TTL sensors in the S2 and not the sensors in the flash, as in the Automatic Mode. I can do that now with any of the radio units that simply replace sa cable to send the firing signal from the S2 to one or many flashes, the SF58 included.

 

Conceptually, I would like to have a radio channel to mimic (and replace) the connection between the S2's flash shoe and the foot of the SF58 so that I can use the SF58's TTL-HSS mode with the S2. It is that simple and that complex.

 

All the best,

 

Bill

 

Bill, just curious ... why the deep interest in TTL off-camera flash? What applications are you doing that would require this? Especially TTL-HSS, which is a very weak light source.

 

FYI, no speed-light works in TTL on the S2 ... just Manual or Auto ... including the Metz 58 with a Leica module. For TTL-HSS on the S2, it is the Leica SF58 in the hot shoe, or nothing. Whether the S2 system can be hacked and bent to do your bidding is a questionable objective IMHO. You still end up with a very weak light source suitable for very limited applications. IF you do figure it out ... do tell!

 

In theory, TTL off-camera speed-light work sounds easy and convenient ... accounting for all light coming into the lens, as you say. In practice not so easy and convenient. This approach has been heavily promoted by camera makers like Nikon's CLS, and demonstrated by professional photographers with a very sophisticated knowledge of lighting techniques that make it look easier than it is ... which IMHO plays off of consumer's latent insecurities regarding the control of artificial lighting.

 

In actual practice, you usually spend as much time individually riding the compensation controls for each TTL speed-light channel to get it right, as you would controlling a manual speed-light or portable strobe. I've used off-camera TTL or TTL-HSS with Canon, Nikon and Sony lighting systems until finally giving up and moved to real lighting that is easier to control anyway ... especially systems with on-camera levels control like Elinchrom, Hensel, Paul C. Buff, and some Profoto or Broncolor.

 

Just my 2¢

 

-Marc

 

BTW, just for a point of related interest, you may want to explore the notion of Hype-Sync as opposed to HSS to achieve shutter speeds in excess of the native sync speed ... however, as far as I know, it simply isn't possible with the S2, and even if the S2 could do it, the results are as questionable as they are complex with lighting systems and triggers that currently can do it.

[wbabbott3]

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Bill, just curious ... why the deep interest in TTL off-camera flash?

 

-Off camera is to get away from deer-in-the-headlights lighting. I just like to have diagonal lighting to supplement other lighting (artificial or natural) and sometimes do not have a ceiling or wall to bounce the flash off of.

 

What applications are you doing that would require this?

 

-None. This is just for personal pleasure.

 

Especially TTL-HSS, which is a very weak light source.

 

-I don't believe I usually need massive amounts of light. When I do, with large group photos, I use Auto Mode or Manual Mode.

 

-TTL and HSS are two different subjects. I've said this before and will say it once again:

 

-The Leica S2 does NOT support TTL on the SF58, only TTL-HSS. That's why I am interested in HSS. I have no need for high speed photography per se.

 

FYI, no speed-light works in TTL on the S2 ... just Manual or Auto ... including the Metz 58 with a Leica module.

 

-That's fine by me.

 

For TTL-HSS on the S2, it is the Leica SF58 in the hot shoe, or nothing.

 

-I know, that's why I have an SF58.

 

Whether the S2 system can be hacked and bent to do your bidding is a questionable objective IMHO.

 

-Absolutely questionable, IMHO also, but I know that the answer will be NO if I don't try; I may not succeed, but never can succeed if I don't try.

 

You still end up with a very weak light source suitable for very limited applications.

 

-I have no knowledge of TTL-HSS being a "weak light source." The SF58 indicates the same range for Manual and TTL-HSS mode using the same ISO and f stop. No indicated "weakness" in the SF59 TTL-HSS there.

 

IF you do figure it out ... do tell!

 

-You bet!

 

In theory, TTL off-camera speed-light work sounds easy and convenient ... accounting for all light coming into the lens, as you say. In practice not so easy and convenient. This approach has been heavily promoted by camera makers like Nikon's CLS, and demonstrated by professional photographers with a very sophisticated knowledge of lighting techniques that make it look easier than it is ... which IMHO plays off of consumer's latent insecurities regarding the control of artificial lighting.

 

In actual practice, you usually spend as much time individually riding the compensation controls for each TTL speed-light channel to get it right, as you would controlling a manual speed-light or portable strobe. I've used off-camera TTL or TTL-HSS with Canon, Nikon and Sony lighting systems until finally giving up and moved to real lighting that is easier to control anyway ... especially systems with on-camera levels control like Elinchrom, Hensel, Paul C. Buff, and some Profoto or Broncolor.

 

-I have no intention of trying to use Nikon or Canon lighting systems with the S2 and I may end up not using the SF58 in off-camera TTL mode but in off-camera Manual or Automatic mode and going to another less portable light source if I want off-camera TTL.

 

Just my 2¢

 

-For which I thank you, Marc.

 

-I've spent the last 38 years using Leica M and R cameras and available light, which is Leica's forte, but to get the depth of field I sometimes want from the S2 costs me a stop or two stopped down, which means that I need to control lighting (add more) or go to higher ISOs.

 

-So I am working on controlling the light and I would like to have flexibility in the direction of the light and TTL exposure control. I hope Leica will begin recognize the need for it to support non-available light photography. Yes, I know the new S lenses are available with optional central shutters.

 

BTW, just for a point of related interest, you may want to explore the notion of Hype-Sync as opposed to HSS to achieve shutter speeds in excess of the native sync speed ... however, as far as I know, it simply isn't possible with the S2, and even if the S2 could do it, the results are as questionable as they are complex with lighting systems and triggers that currently can do it.

 

-Thanks for the thought. As I said, I have never had any interest in ultra high speed photography.

 

 

With all best regards,

 

Bill

[albireo_double]

Given that the pins on the Nikon SC-28 cable are in the same position as on the S2/SF-58, would you not be able to get 2 or 3 SC-28 cables, join them together with the S2 on one end and the SF-58 on the other end to achieve essentially what you are after (not wireless of course but it would be off camera)?

Is there any reason why TTL HSS would not work in this setup? I have seen this approach explained in one of Joe McNally's books, but of course he uses Nikon cameras and speedlights... I think he says there somewhere that you can join up to 3 of these cables together. I haven't tried it, just bought the SC-28 yesterday and I am going to experiment.

[wbabbott3]

Thank you very much for that suggestion. I had been mulling that over in my mind as something that might work, and if so I could go about trying to cobble together a radio link that would emulate the cable, if that is possible. Or just be content with a cable that works.

 

I'm going away for a week or so but when I come back I'll find an SC-28 and we'll see what that inter-species combination yields. Since I expect that I would use a wired or wireless connection within one room 90% of the time it may be the simplest and easiest path to off-camera flash for me.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll let you know the results.

 

Bill

 

P.S. The wheels keep turning: if the Nikon cable pin-outs are the same as the Metz/Leica pin-outs, why can't a Nikon radio link replace a Nikon cable? Hmmm ... another logical lead to explore.

[albireo_double]

OK, tried the S2 connected with the SF58 via the Nikon SC-28 cable. As I expected, it works - the flash recognizes the aperture set on the camera, pre-flash is fired and I get correct exposures. Will be getting two extra SC-28 cables this week and try to use the SF58 with an InterImage Magic Square portable softbox (similar to the Lastolite Ezybox), mainly as subtle fill-in for portraits in brightly lit exteriors. If it works, this may be my portable solution for travel. Having said that, I am also looking at the Ranger Quadra RX for more ambitious work.

[fabeck01]

Hi Bill,

 

If you have been successful I'd love to hear how you did it. Reason is I have the same question albeit I'm using a M9-P and not a S2.

 

The Nikon SC-28 flash sync cable another user has suggested above has also been recommended to me by a Leica shop. It works but obviously isn't wireless. Phottix, an Asian manufacturer of photography accessories, also offers a 10m cable compatible with the Nikon SC-28 cable, significantly reducing the overall cost (TTL Remote Cord 10m for Nikon SC-28).

 

Phottix might also have a wireless trigger that works (but only in manual flash mode I suppose): the Aster wireless flash trigger set (Phottix Aster Wireless Flash Trigger Set - Flash accessories) that specifically states compatibility with the Metz Mecablitz 58 AF-1 flash on their German web page.

 

Regards,

Dirk

[stephan_w]

OK, tried the S2 connected with the SF58 via the Nikon SC-28 cable. As I expected, it works - the flash recognizes the aperture set on the camera, pre-flash is fired and I get correct exposures.

 

is this a "Nikon-SF58" or a "Leica-Metz-SF58" you talk about?

 

and if it is a Leica, why use cables for several flashes? if you use several flashes, IR-triggering should be possible!?

[wbabbott3]

Hi,

I had an accident and damaged my S2. It is being repaired in Solms so I don't have a camera to explore cables with for now.

Best,

Bill

[wbabbott3]

Stephen_W, Dirk,

 

Thanks.

 

On March 1 I tripped and fell and damaged my S2, which is now in Solms, so I have nothing new to report.

 

Bill

[albireo_double]

is this a "Nikon-SF58" or a "Leica-Metz-SF58" you talk about?

 

and if it is a Leica, why use cables for several flashes? if you use several flashes, IR-triggering should be possible!?

 

Leica SF58 it is. I am not talking about using cables for several flashes - just for one flash and to be able to use it off-camera in the HS-TTL mode (which is what the OP was asking about in the first place, I believe). Whilst you can use the IR to trigger several flashes, I don't think you can use the HS-TTL mode in this way.

[lars_bergquist]

Radio releases, a.f.a.i.k., do one thing: Trigger the flash, via the center contact only. There is no further communication between the flash unit and the camera, such as flash cut-off (TTL exposure), flash ready light, flash o.k. light. There is just one (1) channel. A multi-channel radio connection would probably be pretty unreliable.

 

The Nikon flash system is different from the Leica system (for M, X-1, S-2) so the flash units are not compatible. The shoe and foot contacts however are all in the same places (though they do different things, but who cares? we only ask them to carry current) so a Nikon SF cable will serve as an intermediary between two Leica units, flash and camera, carrying all channels in use.

 

Some guys decry TTL flash. Sour grapes, I guess. Or they have not learned to control it, so it's uncontrollable. Anything they don't understand is crap.

 

On the other hand I cannot but feel that electronic flash is for cissies, especially since they stopped using lead-acid batteries in a shoulder pack. Even flashbulbs were pretty tame. Real men should go for the real stuff, setting off a goodly dose of flashpowder (magnesium powder-cum-oxygenator) in a frying pan after setting the camera to T. This comes close to firing a magnum revolver at night; less bang and recoil, but more light. And to hell with your eyebrows, anyway.

 

The old man from the Age of the PC plug

 

P.S. The rain of magnesiom oxide (talc!) that falls gently over the scene afterwards is also great.

[erlingmm]

So, then, reviving this thread by asking a simple question: Is there a way, with the S2, to use multiple SF 58 flashes? Or is this not possible with TTL-HSS (which the S2 seems to require), and antother SF 58 as slave?

[wbabbott3]

So, then, reviving this thread by asking a simple question: Is there a way, with the S2, to use multiple SF 58 flashes? Or is this not possible with TTL-HSS (which the S2 seems to require), and antother SF 58 as slave?

 

I frankly don't know and haven't researched the Metz and Leica Web sites to see if it is possible. It is now a moot point for me.

 

Frankly, I have given up the idea of wireless flash with my S2, for now. Someday I'll try using a Nikon cable or wireless transmitter with the SF58 in A mode. That may work.

 

I will say that I am not impressed with Leica's support for flash photography other than on-the-camera flash. Why they do not support more creative uses of flash I will never know.

 

As a practical matter, my interest in this thread is now over.

 

Thanks for your question; I do hope that you receive a helpful and useful reply.

 

With all best wishes,

 

Bill

[stephan_w]

So, then, reviving this thread by asking a simple question: Is there a way, with the S2, to use multiple SF 58 flashes? Or is this not possible with TTL-HSS (which the S2 seems to require), and antother SF 58 as slave?

 

yes, you can use the SF58 as a slave and TTL should be possible (you can download the manuals and check if I'm right).

 

It's true that Leica is somewhat behind others with the flashes, on the other hand the S is a professional product and I think for professionals don't use TTL so often anyway.

 

I use the PW now for more than 2 years in manual mode and it's really the way to go if you want good results. btw I do it as well with my Nikon

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[erlingmm]

The SF58 does not fire on the S2 in TTL mode, only in TTL-HSS. You are probably right that Manual mode of the SF58 is the answer, but that requires more consideration (professionalism) from the photographer in setting up and adjusting light output from the flash(es) and metering from the camera.