M8 v1.1

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Folks need to remember PMA is but a week and half away and things should fall into place for the show. Okay off to a all day shoot but keep the faith.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[MP3]

Try hard not to respond, but in my opinion, albeit the M8 can produce very impressive image qualities, Leica is quite handicapped in customer communication, not a single word since Nov 26.

 

And as I understand, M8 owners in Hong Kong are still opening their mailbox daily to find only empty air sending from Leica, no official letters, no lens discount letters, let alone the promised filters... I phoned in the importer here today, they responsed, 'Leica said they are going to deal with all these letters, filters stuff directly, so we don't know... =( ' How could it be for a 5 grand camera?

 

It's soon a whole 4-months (1/3 of a year) since they delivered the initial M8s. I have posted on the feeling good thread with satisfying images as well. Though M8 can deliver very impressive images, Leica's official response and customer service since M8s' launch till now is clearly a hard to be beaten worse case study for business school worldwide.

[mjh]

Are you really suggesting that even with all these cameras being returned to Leica and being replaced, with a firmware fix, with the provision of IR filters, the camera is not defective ?

There is just one known defect so far – the one concerning the sensor read-out timing that required early units to be sent back to Solms for repair (an exchange of the sensor board). The necessity of using IR cut filters in front of the lens is a consequence of the camera design, and there were and still are no alternatives to this design, other than giving up on a digital M. There was a major communications blunder about this fact, but it is hardly a defect of the camera.

 

There are still some problems with the early stages of the processing of the sensor data; as far as I know, these are problems with the software and will be dealt with by firmware updates. Most importantly, the M8 is quite capable of delivering great shots even with the current firmware.

[larry]

Larry,

 

To stop you have to start.

 

Phillip,

 

Exactly! Your statement about the M8 being defective was based on a false premise, just as my statement about your spousal abuse was.

 

The M8 may imperfect, but it's not defective. Most people are having a very positive experience with the camera -- myself included.

 

Larry

[parigby]

If it dosen't do what it's supposed to do, then it's defective. Mine dosen't do what it's supposed to, therefore in my eyes it's defective.

 

What most people seem not to grasp is my real gripe, and that is the sheer incompetence of Leica's customer relations policy. You might be happy to be taken for granted, but l'm not.

 

Leica appear to be leaving communication to people like Sean, Guy and others to drip little hints to us about what is happening and, out of necessity, vague timings.

 

All the while we are stuck with :

 

(1) waiting for the firmware update

 

(2) waiting for the free filters

 

(3) waiting for coded lenses to be returned ( l've now been waiting six weeks )

 

Please Leica, just talk to us directly .... one little detailed e-mail on here is all that it would take.

[jaapv]

If it dosen't do what it's supposed to do, then it's defective. Mine dosen't do what it's supposed to, therefore in my eyes it's defective.

 

What is it supposed to do then, apart from taking darn good photographs, which is what is does?

[larry]

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If it dosen't do what it's supposed to do, then it's defective. Mine dosen't do what it's supposed to, therefore in my eyes it's defective.

 

It's fair enough to speak for yourself, but don't presume to make blanket statements about all M8s or the experience of other owners.

[Eoin]

If it dosen't do what it's supposed to do, then it's defective. Mine dosen't do what it's supposed to, therefore in my eyes it's defective.

 

What most people seem not to grasp is my real gripe, and that is the sheer incompetence of Leica's customer relations policy. You might be happy to be taken for granted, but l'm not.

 

Leica appear to be leaving communication to people like Sean, Guy and others to drip little hints to us about what is happening and, out of necessity, vague timings.

 

All the while we are stuck with :

 

(1) waiting for the firmware update

 

(2) waiting for the free filters

 

(3) waiting for coded lenses to be returned ( l've now been waiting six weeks )

 

Please Leica, just talk to us directly .... one little detailed e-mail on here is all that it would take.

 

You know, sometimes you have to take control, if this is bothering you so much, why don't you take a proactive role and make the first move and communicate your concerns and questions directly to leica by letter, phone or email?. Rather than wait and keep waiting past the indicated February delivery date, you make contact, they won't bite your head off.

[egibaud]

we don't need a Windows Millenium

 

so I'll wait for the right firmware, no rush.

[rosuna]

Well, if you ask them, they will respond you clear and quickly. They cannot commit to a precise date because they don't know. That is not the problem.

 

In my case the problem is this: I accept the IR filters on the lens, but I haven't them. The IR problem affects most pictures, even if you don't notice it (IR light's focus plane is different; skin tones are altered; white balance is probably affected; etc.). Due to that problem I can't use my camera in normal conditions.

 

I am not obsessed by the firmware release date, mostly because I don't use extreme wide-angles. But the filters are necessary. I would like to have my 30% discount letter offer for ordering my lens as soon as possible (I need to complete my system with a second lens), but I understand that Leica may be waiting for new announcements at the PMA next week.

 

Even I had problem with the shipping of my camera to Solms for repair (it is a long history). I have motives to be angry, this is the true, but I aren't. We, early adopters of M8 units, have similar experiences, and many of us understand the importance of being patient and supportive, to some extent. I don't deny the problems or accept them, but I try to be rational and keep my confidence on Leica. Leica is working hard, for sure.

.

[j. borger]

If it dosen't do what it's supposed to do, then it's defective. Mine dosen't do what it's supposed to, therefore in my eyes it's defective.

It's NOT defective ... your camera "does not do what is is supposed to" because you are WAITING .... for firmware, filters and lenses.......

Start shooting the darn thing and enjoy instead of waiting .............

[parigby]

J Borger

 

I disagree with you.

[jaapv]

J Borger

 

I disagree with you.

 

 

Well, he has been taking loads of good photographs with the M8 since the beginning of November. I my book that is what camera's are for, and which defective camera's won't do...

[mwalker649]

J Borger

 

I disagree with you.

 

I would be happy to buy your equipment...at a defective price of course :-)

[barjohn]

I would liken it to purchasing a new Porsche for $100K and discovering that the paint on the hood is peeling, you can have a total an unexpected computer malfunction which will render the car inoperable and the 0-60 time of 4.5sec you were expecting well, you can get it sometimes but it needs a K&N filter to get it all of the time. You take it to the dealer and he tells you that the factory knows about the problems and they are working on a solution but he doesn't know when it will be available, but hey, when it is working right it still drives great so go out and enjoy it! Are you going to be a happy customer? Its only a $100k car, not a $400K Rolls so what's your complaint? Besides, the breakdown has only happened to 10 or so drivers and yours hasn't been one of them. The paint formula will be fixed and so will the computer problem and so what if it takes 6 months, you do want them to get it right don't you?

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to tolerate this in a $20K Toyota much less a $100K Porsche. Of course, Toyota is not likely to let their customers have such a problem which is why they have taken so much business from everyone else.

 

My point is simply that as great as this camera is, it does suffer from some defects that need to be addressed and sooner is better than later. I think that people that suffered long 6+ week waits to have their cameras repaired deserve srious kudos and thanks from Leica (I don't put buying a lens at dealer cost in that category since that involves you spending more of your money, instead a rebate of 30% on the camera they purchased would have been more meaningfull). Personally, I would have expected an immediate replacement within shipping times back and forth.

[mwalker649]

I love it when you talk Porsche. :-)

[jrc]

It's not one thing or the other -- of course you can take good photos with the camera, but it's also true that Leica is messing up the PR aspects of this, and also making it difficult for its customers to plan. I believe Leica should simply tell us the truth -- one press release. Will the filters take much longer? Will they be available in all sizes? When (approximately) will the new firmware come out? (I think this last is important because of the DMR experience -- it *never* came out. Is never good for you?)

 

Most people who have experience with waiting for a software releases know how these things work -- last fall, Adobe was promising Lightroom 1.0 at the end of 2006. So, it's delivered in February 2007 (or maybe March -- my box hasn't arrived yet, though I ordered it several weeks ago) and that's bearable, and there were comments from Adobe that led people to understand that there would be a delay. No big deal. It IS a problem if you just don't know; if you can't plan. If you're going to Belize in April and you're thinking about selling your Leica gear on e-bay and going to a 5D, so that you'll be sure that you'll have a fully functional camera, even if it's not the one you prefer.

 

From my point of view, some lenses -- notably the Noctilux -- aren't really fully functional at night if you don't have the filters, at least, not here, where it's cold, and everybody wears synthetics, and there's a lot of IR around. Those filters are difficult to come by in the US. Besides, those are the filters I signed up to get free from Leica. I'm almost at the point of ordering some 486s from Germany, and then dumping the Leica filters on e-bay when they get here.

 

But, as I said at the beginning, it's really not one thing or the other. It's a good camera; AND Leica should do better with customer relations.

 

JC

[grober]

Dear M8-Freak:

 

Sorry for my bad Deutsch but I was only taught English from a public school in the USA.

 

What should we expect if we only let unions and governments run our schools, eh?

 

-g

[jaapv]

I would liken it to purchasing a new Porsche for $100K and discovering that the paint on the hood is peeling, you can have a total an unexpected computer malfunction which will render the car inoperable and the 0-60 time of 4.5sec you were expecting well, you can get it sometimes but it needs a K&N filter to get it all of the time. You take it to the dealer and he tells you that the factory knows about the problems and they are working on a solution but he doesn't know when it will be available, but hey, when it is working right it still drives great so go out and enjoy it! Are you going to be a happy customer? Its only a $100k car, not a $400K Rolls so what's your complaint? Besides, the breakdown has only happened to 10 or so drivers and yours hasn't been one of them. The paint formula will be fixed and so will the computer problem and so what if it takes 6 months, you do want them to get it right don't you?

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to tolerate this in a $20K Toyota much less a $100K Porsche. Of course, Toyota is not likely to let their customers have such a problem which is why they have taken so much business from everyone else.

 

My point is simply that as great as this camera is, it does suffer from some defects that need to be addressed and sooner is better than later. I think that people that suffered long 6+ week waits to have their cameras repaired deserve srious kudos and thanks from Leica (I don't put buying a lens at dealer cost in that category since that involves you spending more of your money, instead a rebate of 30% on the camera they purchased would have been more meaningfull). Personally, I would have expected an immediate replacement within shipping times back and forth.

Sounds a bit like Mercedes after each model change...

I have a feeling that the shipping problem lies somewhere halfway the Atlantic Ocean, or maybe the North Sea. I got my camera back in exactly twelve days and one hour, lens coding was done in just under three weeks. I have a feeling that Solms is doing a good job and that local distributors, transport and customs are wreaking the havoc.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to tolerate this in a $20K Toyota much less a $100K Porsche. Of course, Toyota is not likely to let their customers have such a problem which is why they have taken so much business from everyone else.

{Snipped}

 

I love analogies like this, especially when they go wrong

 

John, of course you'd "tolerate" it, you couldn't do much else about it other than sell.

Are you really trying to suggest that Honda or Toyota (or Porsche) don't have recalls because something doesn't work up to par?

 

Porsche 911 S and 911 4S Recalled

 

There's a fun problem to have!

 

Funny, too, my Accord V6 Coupe had the engine indicator come on (and stay on) if the gas cap wasn't screwed in properly. That would be funny and ok if you *knew* that there was nothing wrong; of course you *don't* and the car goes into the shop for very costly investigations.

 

The exhaust was also recalled, IIRC. So, yes, of course Japanese manufacturers have recalls (there's another one out on Accords as we speak right now), and sometimes Porsche makes mistakes too, beyond the one I quoted above: ever drive a 914? (which, by the way, was still a blast to drive--when it worked, and when you could see out of the windshield. There's a flaw!).

 

Just to cap this off, and perhaps to explain my different expectations, I once owned a very popular, more expensive than usual, Japanese-built "performance-ish"

car with a reputation for brilliance, accuracy of engineering, and reliability. That car just completely quit on me in the middle of cross-town traffic when the computer inside went south.

 

And I mean completely quit--nothing to do but call a tow truck and then replace the offending hardware. We're talking un-re-bootable here

 

See--where computers are concerned, this is the norm, even if the guys at the shop "couldn't believe it." It's also why there are so many fail-safes on critical computer systems.

 

Does this mean all those other owners were plagued by my troubles? Nope. Not that you'd read about, anyway