Photos outside of the frameline?

[ckchen72]

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I was shooting some portraits the other day with the 50mm f/2 and noticed that a significantt portion of the subject outside of the framelines would end up in thr photo. Will this happen to all lenses and if so, how are people compensating?

 

Thanks!

Calvin

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[nryn]

Hi Calvin.

 

Yes, this happens with all lenses. You compensate either with a crop tool or with experience and familiarity with your lenses.

 

The framelines are accurate only at the closest focusing distance for the lens. As your focusing distance increases, the framelines become more and more framing "guides". When you get very familiar with your lenses, you'll have a very good sense of what's in frame and what's not in frame based on the subject in focus. The preview on the digital screen is as accurate as you'll get, though, when it comes to framing, albeit post-exposure.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Calvin yes there will always be more than the frameline shows , so if i want it tight on the image I will put the edge I want really right on the framelines and i know it will give me that little extra, this takes a little time to get used to and coming from a DSLR where pretty much it is WYSIWYG the RF framelines are not that tight so you really just need to crowd the framelines .

[ustein]

Also many DSLRs don't show 100%. Better some % more than even 1% less.

 

Uwe

[robertwright]

It's interesting, never had this kind of instant feedback before on the M6, so you kind of forget by the time you get the film back what the "exact" framing was. Now with the M8, you see it instantly, and although the crop factor is 1.33, it feels to me like my lenses are a lot closer to their full frame focal lengths than I expected. If you consider that the frame lines are 10-15% conservative to what you actually get, you could almost say the "effective crop factor" of the M8 is more like 20% or so.

 

In other words, my 21 feels a lot wider than my 28 used to on the M6. And when I look at the images shot on my 35 on the M8, they don't feel near as tight as the crop factor would indicate.

 

Is anyone else experiencing this?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Yes very much . they feel completely different than the DMR which is 1.37.

[marknorton]

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Robert, the crop factor is set by the size of the sensor, not by the framelines, so your 21mm on an M8 is behaving just like a 28mm lens on a film camera so far as what goes on the sensor is concerned.

 

Leica looked again at the whole issue of framelines and as etherfarm says, put emphasis on close focussing since this where framing is more critical.

[wlaidlaw]

It's interesting, never had this kind of instant feedback before on the M6, so you kind of forget by the time you get the film back what the "exact" framing was. Now with the M8, you see it instantly, and although the crop factor is 1.33, it feels to me like my lenses are a lot closer to their full frame focal lengths than I expected. If you consider that the frame lines are 10-15% conservative to what you actually get, you could almost say the "effective crop factor" of the M8 is more like 20% or so.

 

In other words, my 21 feels a lot wider than my 28 used to on the M6. And when I look at the images shot on my 35 on the M8, they don't feel near as tight as the crop factor would indicate.

 

Is anyone else experiencing this?

 

Robert,

 

I would agree. My Biogon 21 has a feel and perspective more like a 25 than a 28. It may be that old 28's were really 29's. I reckon that the whole viewfinder is about a 95% view for the B21. If you slightly "peer round the corners" you can get a good idea of what you will get. When I get it wrong is when I forget to take off my glasses. The 24 frame is about the limit with glasses on. If my Zenitar 16mm fish-eye is a success, I think I may have to get a CV 21mm viewer for that.

 

Wilson

[glenerrolrd]

I have been experimenting with my external finders to get a better match between what you frame and what the M8 captures. The Leica 28mm brightline finder frames very close to the 24 FOV. The other issue with the finder ..when coming from SLR ..is the over emphasis on finetuning the focus..which draws you to compose with the focus square . Now I focus then compose and shoot a series using the brightline finder. I just received the Zeiss 25/28 finder which I hope will be a good solution for the 21mm and the 24mm. Its certainly quite a bit brighter than the Leica version.

[jaapv]

The reason is simple: The focal length of the lens is (more or less) correct only at infinity. As you focus closer the lens extends and automatically the focal length increases. nSo a 50 mm at 1m distance will be about a 56 mm lens, with the corresponding field of view. For a 50 mm lens the rule of thumb is: at 1m inside framelines. At 3m just outside the framelines At infinity about 3 frameline widths extra.

 

Robert, the crop factor is set by the size of the sensor, not by the framelines, so your 21mm on an M8 is behaving just like a 28mm lens on a film camera so far as what goes on the sensor is concerned.

True and untrue, Mark. As you know, the perspective is onlly dependent on the subject distance, the focal lenght being just a derivative of this. The confidence of being able to crop more closely causes the photographer to move further in, resulting in a pesrpective that is more "wideangle"

[Shootist]

Correct the image is outside the frame lines and it is not centered on the frame lines either.

I did a test the other night and with the camera 4 feet away from a 4 foot ruler I took shots with all lenses I had available, 35/2 40/2 (No frame lines for this lens) 50/2 and 90/2.8.

With the 35 the frame lines were positioned at the 40" (Left side) and 8" (right side) marks on the ruler, trying to keep the 24" mark as the center point. The resulting image shows the right side of the image at the 7.25" mark, a full 3/4" outside the frame line, and the left side was at 41 3/8", a full 1 3/8" outside the frame line.

So not only is the frame lines smaller then the actual image it is shifted 5/16" to the right @ a subject distance of 4 feet. This will only become greater as the subject distance increases.

The same was found for all other lenses listed except my Tele-Elmarit 90mm f/2.8. At the 4 foot distance it was actually slightly inside the frame lines.

[jaapv]

Correct the image is outside the frame lines and it is not centered on the frame lines either.

I did a test the other night and with the camera 4 feet away from a 4 foot ruler I took shots with all lenses I had available, 35/2 40/2 (No frame lines for this lens) 50/2 and 90/2.8.

With the 35 the frame lines were positioned at the 40" (Left side) and 8" (right side) marks on the ruler, trying to keep the 24" mark as the center point. The resulting image shows the right side of the image at the 7.25" mark, a full 3/4" outside the frame line, and the left side was at 41 3/8", a full 1 3/8" outside the frame line.

So not only is the frame lines smaller then the actual image it is shifted 5/16" to the right @ a subject distance of 4 feet. This will only become greater as the subject distance increases.

The same was found for all other lenses listed except my Tele-Elmarit 90mm f/2.8. At the 4 foot distance it was actually slightly inside the frame lines.

Afaik the optical centre of the rangefinder is slightly offset in respect to the lens. The resultant shift should, but I'm not quite sure, diminish towards infinity.

[Shootist]

Afaik the optical centre of the rangefinder is slightly offset in respect to the lens. The resultant shift should, but I'm not quite sure, diminish towards infinity.

 

You may be right. I don't have a ruler long enough, nor could I see the markings even if I did, to test this.

 

It is funny how I never felt the need to do these type of tests with any of the M3's. Or with any SLR/DSLR.

[robertwright]

I think more what I was getting at was just how similar my lenses feel to their nominal focal length. The best example is the 35 cron, when I look at the preview it still "feels" like a 35, not the 40-something odd it should be. I think the crop factor is less than we think it to be in actual use, in other words, since our expectation of the field of view has been so conditioned by years of no instant feedback, we really didn't know how inaccurate the framelines were.

 

Just an observation. There is some relearning I think with this camera, which is a good thing, I like to be jolted out of my slumber every now and again, which was why I moved to rangefinders originally in 2000. At first, everything was off, and I honestly made a lot of bad pictures but they taught me what the camera was actually seeing and not what I wanted the camera to see. Now the two are one in my mind, but this M8 is re-aligning that to an extent.

[ckchen72]

Thanks so much for everybody's advice. I'm still on a steep steep learning curve with digital and I appreciate all the help! That sais here's some photos...

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[steve_l]

Don't forget - Leica, in its "infinite wisdom", changed the frameline spec for the M8 - the ole cameras were framed to be accurate at (I think) a couple of feet (.7 meters sticks in the mind), the M8 at minimum focusing distance, so the error is much greater at normal distance with the M8....

[jaapv]

That is correct, but on the other hand the film camera's had another mm thrown in on each side for the slide mount, which was dropped for the M8, making it much of a muchness.

[wlaidlaw]

I have been experimenting with my external finders to get a better match between what you frame and what the M8 captures. The Leica 28mm brightline finder frames very close to the 24 FOV. The other issue with the finder ..when coming from SLR ..is the over emphasis on finetuning the focus..which draws you to compose with the focus square . Now I focus then compose and shoot a series using the brightline finder. I just received the Zeiss 25/28 finder which I hope will be a good solution for the 21mm and the 24mm. Its certainly quite a bit brighter than the Leica version.

 

Roger,

 

Did you not feel that compared to the lenses which seem very good value, the price of the finder was "ouch" expensive. Mind you compared to the £199 I have just paid for the 1.25x magnifier, almost anything would seem good value!

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

Thanks so much for everybody's advice. I'm still on a steep steep learning curve with digital and I appreciate all the help! That sais here's some photos...

 

Calvin,

 

The third image of the bridge is lovely - you have captured cold winter colours to near perfection.

 

Wilson

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Hallo,

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[carstenw]

Yup, the diopters and magnifier are brutally priced, but then, they are perfect, so in the end I can forgive them. I do need another diopter for my M6 though. Ouch.