n6re1210 Posted December 7, 2011 Share #1 Posted December 7, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm trying to date this ploot serial 2321. Okay this is what I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In 1938 a leica gun was made and first thought of in 1936. The 1938 model doesn't look quite like this one. I found a photo of a 1937 model the long telescopic eyepiece is dovetailed like the one I have but chrome were the eyepeice connects to the ploot. Mine appears to have a different conection still dovetailed but black painted brass conection and can be permently screwed in the ploot. I do not have a stock. The lens attached is a dallmeyer 12 inch with an infrared filter. ser 205965 Can anyone help me date this? and how many made? Could this be a prototype? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 7, 2011 Posted December 7, 2011 Hi n6re1210, Take a look here leica gun ploot. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
n6re1210 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share #2 Posted December 7, 2011 Pictures by rgraphex - Photobucket A photo link Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
someonenameddavid Posted December 7, 2011 Share #3 Posted December 7, 2011 Compared to the "Leica Gun" or RIFLE shown on the Tamarkin auction site https://tamarkin.auctionserver.net/view-auctions/catalog/id/3/lot/713/ , the top of the reflex housing looks like a non-Leitz modification: it is relatively crude, but still nicely machined and lacks the "Leitz Wetzlar" branding, curved top and patinated finish. Probably an aftermarket addition to a genuine PLOOT. Would like to see some pictures taken through the lens. Since the lens is a Dallmeyer, it might be a spy camera put together by MI5. If you could prove that, it might fetch some serious money: but just a "fabricated" item, not so much David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6re1210 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share #4 Posted December 7, 2011 Here is a link to an older one Leitz Special Viewfinder for Leica-Gun, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6re1210 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share #5 Posted December 7, 2011 Both veiwfinder and ploot is marked Leitz. Its not a modification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
someonenameddavid Posted December 7, 2011 Share #6 Posted December 7, 2011 I'm willing to be proven wrong... I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination : but there are a lot of convincing fakes out there. Can you put a photo of the Leitz logo on the top part of the mirror housing and a picture of the eyepiece. My skepticism is based on the mount for the upper part has some ugly looking machine screws and the upper mirror box doesn't look well finished. Could be E.Leitz New York and therefore super rare or a Russian copy. Do you have a history: what the antiquarians call a "provenance"? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6re1210 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share #7 Posted December 7, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) The viewfinder is ingraved Leitz germany. The square part of the ploot is 1 peice and machined better then anything russian. Do you have knowledge of serial numbers? I have no doubt what it is, just when. I have been collecting leica for a long time. Any russian fake is easy to spot with experience. I have a few books on leica but none of these cover ploots. I never seen a russian copy of a ploot. The viewfinder fit to the ploot is extremely accurate well fit and machined unlike russian. It is only primitive in appearance. I will post a better photo after work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted December 7, 2011 Share #8 Posted December 7, 2011 The peices are genuine. There was an article in Veiwfinder, I believe, in 1982. Your finder was made for a predecessor gun prototype, before the New York Leica RIFLE. At least 10 of these finders were shipped to New York. None were used by New York, and all were sold to collectors much later. One recently was on e-bay from a store in Atlanta. I'll summarize the article when I get home tonight and have the article in hand. So genuine parts. Probably assempled later by someone else. The lens would not have come from a Leica source. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twotone Posted December 7, 2011 Share #9 Posted December 7, 2011 Pretty sure the recent i-gavel Arthur Kier auction had one of these for sale. Sabre Camera Gunstock E7RBLD - Item #: 2304311 Leica Reflex Housing PLOOT E7RBLD - Item #: 2304313 http://bid.igavelauctions.com/AuctionHelp.taf?S=n&keyword=E7RB&return=50&R=&C=&sort=4&DA=&st=2&Category_ID=&Donor_ID=&su=&status=&skipkw=&_start=1&days=3650&PD=&CD=&hr=&bo=1&lo=&hi=&loc=&at=&P=&Ltype=&event_id=&slo=&shi= Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6re1210 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share #10 Posted December 7, 2011 I look foward to that article. Thank you Zeitz And I think everone else fore there input. Would you know who the ebay seller in Atlanta is? There must be slight variations of this. The ploot I have functions would not take much to make a Leica gun with these parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twotone Posted December 7, 2011 Share #11 Posted December 7, 2011 Pure guess on my part but the Atlanta seller may well be Everard & Co who disposed of the Keir collection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted December 7, 2011 Share #12 Posted December 7, 2011 I believe the e-bay seller in Atlanta was Quality Camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted December 7, 2011 Share #13 Posted December 7, 2011 Here is information on the "early gunstock camera". Those who have G. Rogliatti's Leica and Leicaflex Lenses book can find an excellent picture on page 139. The Leica Historical Society of America (LHSA) article is in its Viewfinder publication Volume 14, Number 2, April - June 1981. On page 11 is a short article/introduction called Leica Guns, by Jim Lager. On page 12 starts an article called Wetzlar Gewehr by Randol Hooper. It shows several pictures of the "early gunstock camera" shown by G. Rogliatti. This piece of equipment was in the Leica museum which was subsequently sold off and then that collection was broken up. Page 14 gives good detail on this finder. Let me quote the last paragraph on page 15. "The Wetzlar gewehr certainly influenced the development of the American version. For example, at least 10 of the special viewfinders were shipped to Leitz New York for unknown purposes. Could they have been intended for use on the New York RIFLE? They were lost for many years to be rediscovered and sold to collectors in 1980. Once could speculate that E. Leitz New York comtemplated production of the Wetzlar gewehr but scrapped the idea in favor of their own improved design ..." So I think you have an important peice with direct DNA connection to Leica and the RIFLE gun camera. The viewfinder and the PLOOT are probably not linked until someone took the two pieces and integrated them. But when around WWII? In 1980? You'll probably never know unless the creator or buyer comers forward. The lens was probably a convenient piece added on by the person who made the set. Hope that helps and is of interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted December 8, 2011 Share #14 Posted December 8, 2011 Regarding the Sabre gunstock. These were made much later. I believe the early 1960's were about the right time. Considering there is no connection of the Sabre gunstock to Leica in the least, the prices they bring seem very high. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6re1210 Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share #15 Posted December 8, 2011 I would like to see the illustration or photo of that first gun. The Dallmeyer looks like a good choice for use with it. I'm not familiar with the quality of the lens. One side of the cable is in poor shape otherwise its in working shape. Could use a bit of cleaning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted December 8, 2011 Share #16 Posted December 8, 2011 The PLOOT is one of the very first model with the little sleeve around the mirror trigger as the first on the left shown on the pict (s/n 1978 1935-36): Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/168043-leica-gun-ploot/?do=findComment&comment=1865306'>More sharing options...
n6re1210 Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share #17 Posted December 8, 2011 Most definitely looks like the first one (1) with no cold shoe but the fitting for the finder is square. So I think this ploot was factory adapted for the viewfinder. If that one is 1935 then the viewfinder and ploot would have been made between 35 and 36. There is no serial for the veiwfinder only leitz made in germany. Since the item functions I wonder if it could have been used at the 36 olympics? I'm going to attach it to my IIIf RD and use it this weekend and test the lens out it's clean no fungus or haze. i'll have to date the lens next dallmeyer 205965 I dont think the lens came with it but a good choice for use. If I had a photo of the original camera. I could try in duplicate the stock with the help of a machine shop Randy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted December 12, 2011 Share #18 Posted December 12, 2011 . If I had a photo of the original camera. I could try in duplicate the stock with the help of a machine shop Randy I forward some to you Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/168043-leica-gun-ploot/?do=findComment&comment=1868846'>More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted December 12, 2011 Share #19 Posted December 12, 2011 And some more in here. Good luck ! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/168043-leica-gun-ploot/?do=findComment&comment=1868849'>More sharing options...
zeitz Posted December 13, 2011 Share #20 Posted December 13, 2011 Here is page 139 from G. Rogliatti's book. This would be very hard to recreate. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/168043-leica-gun-ploot/?do=findComment&comment=1869702'>More sharing options...
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