Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 17, 2006 Share #21 Posted July 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) LCT this was discussed at photo.net and what it comes down to it looks like is there are just some pixels that are hidden on the DMR because of the film rails and such. The M8 can recover just a little bit extra becuase it does not have those issues. So essential it is that Kodak sensor they put in the DMR which is the good news, the better news I hope is Jenoptiks did a better job on the software end and firmware end on the M8 and that is the area we just are not sure on. But giving leica already went through the pains with Imacon we will get better on the M8. I'm jumping on it with blind faith just like the DMR . i was going to wait but i can't . It's like a kid in a candy store why get one when you can get two. LOL So i will sell one DMR/R9 and the R 15mm and get a M8 and i think the upcoming M 15, 24, 50 lux and 75 summricon. that way i have a backup and a seperate system on both ends. leica just has to love crazy people like me. :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here Speculating re how M8 lens coding might work. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted July 17, 2006 Share #22 Posted July 17, 2006 Yes they did, but I'm hazy as to when it was in relation to the problems getting the DMR out. They may well have gone with Kodak, but I don't see a sensor on their web-site which provides the 1.33 crop factor. According to the Kodak web-site, the KAF-10010 provides 3876 * 2584 pixels but the DMR only supports 3872 * 2576, losing pixels all the way round. Even if they uses them all, the crop factor would still be above 1.36. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 17, 2006 Share #23 Posted July 17, 2006 Ah yes i see, thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted July 17, 2006 Share #24 Posted July 17, 2006 Mark, The variance in pixels for the DMR vs. M8 use of the KAF-10010 is probably due to the pre-existing film gate on the R8/R9. The sensor gate on the M8 could be built to the full sensor dimensions. FOV 1.37 vs. 1.33 are close enough, but I'll take a look at what you said about the dimensions. Guy, The Phase One backs that have the 6.8µm pixels are the P30 (KAF-31600) and the P45 (KAF-3900). The specs on the Phase One site don't specify Kodak, but the dimensions match and Luminous Landscape confirmed the sensors were Kodak. LCT, I also remember reading a comment by a Leica person indicating that it was a Kodak sensor along with the comment that Imacon would not be doing the firmware. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 17, 2006 Share #25 Posted July 17, 2006 Yes Phase is Kodak and leaf uses Dalsa. seems to me the same technology for the P30,45 and DMR sensors just different sizes. I could be wrong here but that is what it looks like Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted July 17, 2006 Share #26 Posted July 17, 2006 According to the Kodak web-site, the KAF-10010 provides 3876 * 2584 pixels but the DMR only supports 3872 * 2576, losing pixels all the way round. Even if they uses them all, the crop factor would still be above 1.36. Hi Mark, I went back to the KAF-10010 PDF data sheet and found that the total pixels are 3976 X 2624 for 10.3MP. The data sheet shows an Active Buffer of 40 pixels bringing the pixel count to 3876 X 2584 as in the DMR (10.0MP). Now, if you reduce the Active Buffer to 10 pixels, you get 3906 X 2614, for 10.2MP, as indicated in the better Leica rumors. This would change the dimensions of the active sensor to 26.5mm X 17.77mm and that would give a diagonal of 31.9mm. I may not have guessed the reduction in the Active Buffer right, but there is room to fiddle. Using all the pixels, I get a diagonal of 32.05, an FOV of 1.345 The pages of that PDF that I found interesting were 12 & 13 showing the angle resonses. From these, you can sort of guess about the sensor fall off. though I don't know if this is with the DMR off-set microlenses or not. I think I hear the Leica and Kodak engineers chuckling.... Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted July 17, 2006 Share #27 Posted July 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Look at the Dalsa web-site and you see interesting news items on contracts placed which, because of their timing and size, could easily be for the M8. Hi Mark, I finally gave the Dalsa site a good look and you could be onto something. If not for the M8, something interesting may be in the works somewhere. What do you think of a possibility of Kodak contracting out the fabrication to someone like Dalsa? Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted July 17, 2006 Share #28 Posted July 17, 2006 Phase is Kodak and leaf uses Dalsa ... and Kodak is the owner of Leaf, isn't? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 17, 2006 Share #29 Posted July 17, 2006 2004 must have been a tough time for Leica. Just as they were getting ready to announce the DMR at Photokina, their development partner Imacon ties up with Hasselbald. With Imacon's priorities refocussed, the DMR slips and Epson surprises everyone by launching the R-D1 catching Leica out who were still saying a Digital M is not possible. Meanwhile, revenue for Leica is falling out of bed. The CEO resigns to go and head up a furniture company, his replacement lasts a few months. The company faces going under and is rescued only by a comprehensive restructuring of its capital. What I can't decide is how much of the DMR IP is in Leica's hands and how much is with Imacon. If Leica retained the IP, it would make sense to continue with the Kodak sensor and delta off the DMR for the M8. If Leica were licencing it from Imacon and it would not be available for future products, a clean sheet design with a new development partner might not necessarily use the Kodak sensor. We know Jenoptik use the Dalsa sensor, we know also that Dalsa make full frame sensors and we know that Dalsa sensors are claimed to work without microlenses. Leica would then be interested in carrying forward IP from the M8 to future products, for example a full frame digital SLR and, in time, a full frame rangefinder. Sounds like a sensible direction to me. We'll see! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 17, 2006 Share #30 Posted July 17, 2006 I'm on the DMR sensor path on this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 17, 2006 Share #31 Posted July 17, 2006 Facts: 1. the KAF-10010 sensor does not have enough pixels for a 1.33 crop, even with NO border. 1.33x requires 3992 pixels in the long dimension; 27mm x 18mm active area. 2. According to the Kodak ordering information ALL KAF-10010 sensors come with 'offset microlenses' - it's the only way you can buy this sensor. 3. Is the KAF-10010 used for ANY OTHER DEVICE besides the Leica DMR back? I think it is a unique sensor for a unique product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 17, 2006 Share #32 Posted July 17, 2006 Andy i just don't see how leica would switch to Dalsa at this price point right now and take on something else, i see no reason why they can't buy the sensor from kodak and have someone besides imacon do the electronics. The only way they can do it is retaining the DMR sensor from Kodak for the cost savings. is there a mass produced Dalsa sensor out there , i don't think there is besides leaf stuff which is not the expected 20,000 units that the M is. Just does not make financial sense but hey i could be wrong but from all i here it is Kodak, how they did it is something we may all be guessing at. We will see. Jenoptik may very well use Dalsa sensors in there backs but they can certainly work with a Kodak sensor also for the electronics and firmware. Is it not basically the same technology they would be working with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 17, 2006 Share #33 Posted July 17, 2006 Andy it maybe be possiable that Kodak is posting the dimensions according to the use they are using it in and not what is there as a whole Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 18, 2006 Share #34 Posted July 18, 2006 Hi, Guy. Actually, I think the M8 will use a Kodak sensor - I just don't think it will be the 10010. Here are Kodak's specs: Total Number of Pixels 3916 (H) x 2624 (V) = 10.7M Number of Active Pixels 3876 (H) x 2584 (V) = 10.0M A 1.33x crops using these 6.8 micron pixels requires 3992 - the 10010 comes up short by 76 pixels. I've asked the question, and no one has answered it yet on two forums - whether any other manufacturer uses the KAF-10010 sensor for any purpose. My reason for asking is this - I don't think anyone does, which means Kodak was willing to produce this sensor for a single product (the DMR) on a small scale. Perhaps with the hope of some subsidiary sales after the fact via their catalog (and none have developed yet, apparently). Therefore - why does everyone assume the Kodak has not designed and built a NEW sensor in this family - with larger size and more pixels - to accomodate the 1.33x crop of the M8? A KAF-10510 or whatever? If they were willing to build something exclusive for the DMR (sales so far - 5,000?) they would surely be willing to build something exclusive for the M8 (sales in the first month likely 5,000). Because it's not in their catalog? Given how secretive Leica has been about the M8 in general, I suspect they just asked Kodak to keep it (the new 1.33x sensor) out of the catalog until the M8's official introduction. At which point Leica can show off its new specially developed Kodak sensor - and Kodak can stick the 10510 in its catalog and advertise "Now, you too can buy the sensor Leica developed for the M8..." BTW: here are the two ways one can order a Kodak 10010: KAF-10010-CXA-CE-AA-OFFSET Color (Bayer RGB), Offset Microlens, CERDIP Package (sidebrazed), Clear Cover Glass with AR coating (external) and IR coating (internal), Standard Grade KAF-10010-CXA-CE-AE-OFFSET Color (Bayer RGB), Offset Microlens, CERDIP Package (sidebrazed), Clear Cover Glass with AR coating (external) and IR coating (internal), Engineering Sample There is no such thing available as a KAF-10010 "without the offset microlenses" - they are an intergral part of the sensor package. Check the catalog yourself: http://www.kodak.com/US/en/dpq/site/SENSORS/name/KAF-10010_product/show/KAF-10010_productOrderingOptions Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 18, 2006 Share #35 Posted July 18, 2006 Andy now that makes more sense. i can see a new sensor from them since it maybe some modifications to a the technology they have in there sensors, so yes that i can see plus it stays with the same vendor and costs can be controlled better than switching to a whole new vendor and doing startup. This may actually be very easy for Kodak to accomadate and also keep the costs down for leica. And it will be a large run for Kodak which there business can certainly use. holding back this info is pretty normal until it hits the streets so no surprise there. I would say this make much more sense than jumping on Dalsa at this point, not that they make bad sensors just the opposite they make very good ones. But the cost to go from scratch can be very high Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted July 18, 2006 Share #36 Posted July 18, 2006 Hi, Guy. Actually, I think the M8 will use a Kodak sensor - I just don't think it will be the 10010. Here are Kodak's specs: Total Number of Pixels 3916 (H) x 2624 (V) = 10.7M A 1.33x crops using these 6.8 micron pixels requires 3992 - the 10010 comes up short by 76 pixels. Therefore - why does everyone assume the Kodak has not designed and built a NEW sensor in this family - with larger size and more pixels - to accomodate the 1.33x crop of the M8? A KAF-10510 or whatever? If they were willing to build something exclusive for the DMR (sales so far - 5,000?) they would surely be willing to build something exclusive for the M8 (sales in the first month likely 5,000). Because it's not in their catalog? Given how secretive Leica has been about the M8 in general, I suspect they just asked Kodak to keep it (the new 1.33x sensor) out of the catalog until the M8's official introduction. At which point Leica can show off its new specially developed Kodak sensor - and Kodak can stick the 10510 in its catalog and advertise "Now, you too can buy the sensor Leica developed for the M8..." Hi Andy. I think you are right that it will be a variation on the KAF-10010 theme, Including perhaps different off-set microlenses for RF applications. Depending on how you do the numbers, the DMR sensor has 126 pixels on the borders (beyond the 3916 X 2624) to fool around with. Kodak didn't publish info on the KAF-8300 before the release of the Oly E-300 and after they did, they took it down before the release of the E-500, to revise it. BTW, for 3916 X 2624, I get 10.276 > 10.3MP Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 18, 2006 Share #37 Posted July 18, 2006 Bob: As to the 126-pixel "border", those pixels are not just sitting around doing nothing, waiting to be included in a picture. They have specific functions - as dark pixels for calibration, as buffer pixels to absorb some excess 'spill' of voltage, as 'monitor' pixels for more calibration. (For details of how they are used, go to the Kodak sensor site linked in my post above, click on the specifications tab, and download the 2nd .pdf document listed (1.09 Mbytes) There's a blueprint of the 10010 that shows all the bands of pixels outside the image are, and details what they are or do.) So they are not really 'available' for fooling around with. Analogy: Both the tread and sidewalls of a tire are made out of rubber. But that doesn't mean one can simply add some tread texture to the sidewalls and get any meaningful increase in tread area (or grip on the road). The sidewalls have their own job to do - to get more traction, you have to make the whole tire bigger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted July 18, 2006 Share #38 Posted July 18, 2006 Hi Andy, The PDF that you refer to is where I got my information, too. Trying to back into things like this, is often an exercise in counting frog's hairs....LOL I think that what I was trying to get at is that the sensor as it is (uncut) on the wafer can go on to be configured in various ways and I think the 1.37 and 1.33 FOV configurations are both possible. At 147 pixel lines per mm, we might actually be talking about frog's hairs. I have seen some border pixel configurations on other sensors that are not so generous as the KAF-10010's. For fun consider that if the folks that said the FOV was 1.33 were not using the conventional 24mm X 36mm, but rather the less used 23.8 X 35.6mm, then all our backing into things will probably result in knocking a lamp over, before we get a right answer...:-) It is all fun and I hope they do use the KAF sensor, because I have had good experiences with the 5MP version and feel that I can safely expect even better from what we are waiting for. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 18, 2006 Share #39 Posted July 18, 2006 ... if the folks that said the FOV was 1.33 were not using the conventional 24mm X 36mm, but rather the less used 23.8 X 35.6mm, then all our backing into things will probably result in knocking a lamp over, before we get a right answer...:-)... I hear THAT! (M8-minus-70 days and counting) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 18, 2006 Share #40 Posted July 18, 2006 After all this waiting, it will be a bit of a let down if it's as we expected. I'm really hoping for something which really takes us by surprise... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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