aesop Posted September 30, 2011 Share #21 Posted September 30, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Absolutely, people can do what they want, I'm all for it. I was just saying that its a mistake to think people are taking up film because there is some fundamental truth they are discovering about it. Sure some will stick with it, thats OK, but the majority of new film users are following a trend, its fashionable, and some will continue, but more will go back to digital. Its 'The Summer of Love' for film, harking back to a simpler time, but as with the flower power era nearly all hippies converted to a normal life after they got it out of their system (and I had long hair). In any case film will reach a plateau and hover there as generations come and go, with steady sales for the right niche companies. Steve ...and where is the evidence, Steve? Neither you nor I know for sure and, with due respect, hippies don't count. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 Hi aesop, Take a look here Film sold out. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
plasticman Posted September 30, 2011 Share #22 Posted September 30, 2011 I would agree with you if I hadn't made the specific point of not including all photographers in the idea. Aah! I get what ya mean, Steve. What you mean is that all film users are bunny-hugging hippies with no idea what real photography is... except anyone who happens to read your post... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted September 30, 2011 Share #23 Posted September 30, 2011 UPS just dropped a 20 pound box of film off at my door from Freestyle..........film that gets shot regularly for paid work, for book projects, for life. I read posts like this and realize what a total waste the internet is at times... After more than thirty years of using film I still buy it out of habit, depsite being primarily 'digital' for the past eight years. Which means I now have a freezer full that is never likely to be used. I would say that the majority of film users nowadays are relative newbies who are still enchanted by the magic of the chemicals and process. In fact they put the process before the photograph, any photo made with film having more cache than a better photograph made digitally. For instance, an average internet discussion about a photo will rapidly descend into talk about Tri-X and its qualities than the actual content of the photograph. People who have used film for many years tend to have got over this stage and moved beyond. For many photographers who have spent a serious amount of time processing vast quantities of film and making prints the novelty of still using film is diluted. If the quality and content of the image was ever important the rise of digital has meant film could take a back seat. So while I do still use some film, all this bunny hugging rubbish about the magic of the process and pace of life is for people with time on their hands. Processing film is a chore for me, but its good to know sales are now increasing, and its all fundamentally down to Lomo and their outreach to a young generation. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 1, 2011 Share #24 Posted October 1, 2011 Well if film use is actually going up significantly worldwide, other than in a single store in Colorado, it just might be in time to save Kodak. (Whose stock closed today at 1/100th the price it was back in 1998. Up some in after hour trading) Recently, Kodak has consistently been under performing even the negative estimates of Wall Street. And despite that some schools still teach basic photography via manual film cameras, many schools have gone all digital. So other than the impact this has on one store, is there some conclusion we are supposed to draw from this? So film sales are up for this fall season vs. last year. How much film did this store sell in the same time period 3 years ago, and 10 years ago? In any case there could be an explanation that would have nothing to do with an increase in film usage by photographers. In particular there may be fewer local sources for film that compete with this store. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share #25 Posted October 1, 2011 Outside of cheekyguille, I didn't notice anyone referring to an INCREASE in film sales. I mentioned in response to a question that we'd sold more, early in the school year, than anticipated. And that we seem to be reaching the plateau that everyone expected at some point. So I think, 250swb and AlanG, that you are both setting up a "straw man" "Well if film use is actually going up significantly worldwide...." - Sorry, Alan, but those are YOUR words and not something anyone else on this thread actually said, so you are basically arguing with yourself. Kodak's miseries, as I mentioned on another thread, are mostly due to management incompetence. They OWNED digital 'way back when they also owned a thriving film market - and managed to screw up the digital side of the business (cameras, backs, sensors - excellent products they've always ended up abandoning). They were well aware that film would become a niche product line (or so they proclaimed a decade ago) - so their misfortunes are not simply that film did decline, but that they were incompetent to follow their own party line and projections, and manage the transition. Kodak over the past decade wasn't film guys who couldn't let go of the past - it was (IMHO) MBAs who had no clue about any aspect of the business (despite great engineers working on both film and digital). Is our store representative of all stores citywide or nationwide? I doubt it. Have we benefited by embracing both film and digital - buying (and selling profitably) used film (and digital) equipment when the other local stores direct would-be sellers to eBay? Yes. (I've heard at least one representative of another store chain admit they were "reconsidering" their policy of not taking film/digital trade-ins). Are we selling less film today than 3 or 10 years ago? Probably (I wouldn't know myself - only been there 4 months). Are we more profitable this year than last? Not my place to say - but the boss grins when he compares the month-over-month results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphoenix Posted October 1, 2011 Share #26 Posted October 1, 2011 Thank Heavens; the voice of reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 1, 2011 Share #27 Posted October 1, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) "Well if film use is actually going up significantly worldwide...." - Sorry, Alan, but those are YOUR words and not something anyone else on this thread actually said, so you are basically arguing with yourself. Yes they are my words but I'm not arguing with anyone. Just speculating on if we are supposed to draw something from what you posted. Isn't that what others have done? Speculating on the kinds of people who are using film or are not using film? Their motives, artistic sensibilities, etc. And saying things such as "Simply wonderful news." Did he just mean that it was wonderful that one store sold more film recently or was this wishful thinking of some kind of trend? Kodak only "owned" digital when there wasn't much of a way to capitalize off of it. Once the market expanded, Kodak did not have any edge, let alone a near monopoly as they once had with film. Suddenly they were up against numerous camera and electronic companies that had much more ability in what mattered for these new products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 1, 2011 Share #28 Posted October 1, 2011 Outside of cheekyguille, I didn't notice anyone referring to an INCREASE in film sales...snip So I think, 250swb and AlanG, that you are both setting up a "straw man" "Well if film use is actually going up significantly worldwide...." - Sorry, Alan, but those are YOUR words and not something anyone else on this thread actually said, so you are basically arguing with yourself. I think you will find I was refering to healthy sales of film to new users, the Lomo generation. Whether this equates to a general increase in sales I don't know. They are buying film just because its a new trend (for them). I do wish people (not just you) would read an entire post instead of mentally cutting and pasting the bits they think they can score some points with. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StS Posted October 1, 2011 Share #29 Posted October 1, 2011 Well, we have been here before, haven't we? I can only share the experience of one person, which happens to be myself. When I bought my first digital SLR, I felt like entering a new level, having the advantages of Polaroid and film photography combined, being able to change the film for every exposure and having the option to change the white balance for every frame individually. So, for three years, I was completely switched digital and I think I learned a lot in this time. Then a used camera shop had a good deal for a M3 in a very good condition. After a while, I recognized I had completely switched to the M3, the Nikon started to collect dust. Even the M8, acquired later, couldn't change this any more, the M8 was my main camera for one year and became "second body" the year after. Still good to have the digital option, but not important enough to justify for myself the purchase of an M9. No Lomo involved so far To draw the conclusion - there are some people, to whom film is still important enough to be kept. I don't care, if this is a shrinking market, as long I can get material. Should Kodak pull out of the film market, I'll grumble and set up my process again for one of the new, smaller companies like Adox. I would truly miss the new Portra 400, though.... Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronan Posted October 1, 2011 Share #30 Posted October 1, 2011 ...and where is the evidence, Steve? Neither you nor I know for sure and, with due respect, hippies don't count. Ask around. UPS just dropped a 20 pound box of film off at my door from Freestyle..........film that gets shot regularly for paid work, for book projects, for life. I read posts like this and realize what a total waste the internet is at times... An exception, ok... Just FYI, a project doesn't set the rules or let you have a comfy living. That's why professionals shoot digital now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted October 3, 2011 Share #31 Posted October 3, 2011 These two images from tokyocamerastyle were interesting: one / two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest srheker Posted October 3, 2011 Share #32 Posted October 3, 2011 The growing adoption/return to film is a visible trend. Maybe it's just that the people who move back to film are more visible, but on the invisible side of the trend there are many people who where still using film and who switch to digital or just stop using film because they die. I don't think (even so I'd love to believe it) that the future of film is safe. One thing that bothers me for example (and apart from rumors regarding Kodak) is the lack of new hardware being produced (apart form M7/MP and the Holga) like 35mm SLRs or really good film scanners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 3, 2011 Share #33 Posted October 3, 2011 There are millions of good film SLRs dirt cheap in the second hand market, so the supply to satisfy the demand of the curious is well covered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest srheker Posted October 3, 2011 Share #34 Posted October 3, 2011 These two images from tokyocamerastyle were interesting: one / two. I don't think that the two pictures are really related. I think more people ditch the X100 because they miss the zoom lens instead of switching to film. Anyway the film cooler is a wonderful sight! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest srheker Posted October 3, 2011 Share #35 Posted October 3, 2011 There are millions of good film SLRs dirt cheap in the second hand market, so the supply to satisfy the demand of the curious is well covered. Yes, you are right as long as we are talking about cameras. But if you look at scanners they are quite expensive and repair becomes a problem. (The same for simple rotation developing machines and other stuff). When I went back to using film, my used Nikon V cost me 200€ more than it had cost back than in the shop when it was new. And that was even cheap. And todays scanners are, well... to the honest: crap! Who needs a medium format scanner that costs more than 1000€ but can't handle strips of 3 6x6 negatives. (At least (and for reasons of honesty) the should believer it with a free pair of scissors.) I'd be glad to see Nikon going back to making scanners. And with today's technology dust an scratch removal form black and white should be possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted October 3, 2011 Share #36 Posted October 3, 2011 Maybe it's just that the people who move back to film are more visible, but on the invisible side of the trend there are many people who where still using film and who switch to digital or just stop using film because they die.I don't think (even so I'd love to believe it) that the future of film is safe. On the contrary, the people moving to digital or simply not using film anymore are very visible: just walk around on the street for a while, and you'll see them. By the same token, take a look at the mounds of plastic cameras in thrift stores that I mentioned above. What Andy (Piper) was talking about was where the graph levels out. Incidentally, the images I posted from tokyocamerastyle weren't really meant to be taken as a serious comment on the state of digital vs film - I was just having fun. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 3, 2011 Share #37 Posted October 3, 2011 If you think about it, all this discussion is just trying to ponder where film usage will bottom out in various markets and applications. The question is that once it does bottom out in the market that you still use, will your materials of choice still be available? We can only guess at this today. But hopefully you have the materials you like for a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aesop Posted October 3, 2011 Share #38 Posted October 3, 2011 Ask around. ...your input is embarrassing, Ronan - and I am being polite. If you must reply, at least try to read and understand the essence of my questioning, before proffering zero-value anecdotal responses like "Ask around". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted October 3, 2011 Share #39 Posted October 3, 2011 I'm actually shooting more film this then ever. Go figure. And my girlfriend, who has always been 100% digital, has started to shoot a bit of film too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted October 4, 2011 Share #40 Posted October 4, 2011 I have been using Nikon film scanners for a long time, Coolscan III and V, and they are great, but I also have an Epson V750, and I am happy that it does just as good a job as the Nikons, although considerably slower. It won't handle Kodachromes well though, so I have to get cracking and scan all the old K stuff quickly! Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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