businessasusual Posted September 21, 2011 Share #21 Posted September 21, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) It will work if we are determined to make it work. It may not be for everyone but for those that want it to - how hard is it? Still think it will become a trashfes if we leave "marking" to general members. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 21, 2011 Posted September 21, 2011 Hi businessasusual, Take a look here Another photo critique thread. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
bill Posted September 21, 2011 Share #22 Posted September 21, 2011 I can see the point, but I am opposed to any form of "panel" approach. I would consider that elitist and counter-productive. People give of their opinions here freely and should continue to do so. It doesn't take long to work out who "gives good critique" and who is just making valueless nummy noises as social lubrication. The latter can reliably be regarded as water off a duck's back in 99.9% of cases. Does that mean those people should not be allowed to comment? No. I just wish they could raise their sights above the crushingly anodyne and "nice". Who is "qualified" to critique? There is an interesting question. Do restaurant critics have Michelin stars? Do film critics have Oscars? Being a good photographer may lend weight to your views but does not in and of itself qualify you to be a "high-content" critic. Equally, you may be a mediocre photographer either technically or visually, but excel in one of the other areas - technically excellent photos of pet cats, for example, vs technically incompetent but brilliantly visualised and composed photos of jaguars. Or you may be a photographic master but unable to string three words together when sat in front of a keyboard. It takes all sorts. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzo Posted September 21, 2011 Share #23 Posted September 21, 2011 ... Equally, you may be a mediocre photographer either technically or visually, but excel in one of the other areas - technically excellent photos of pet cats, for example, vs technically incompetent but brilliantly visualised and composed photos of jaguars. This part is a bit confusing to be honest Bill. I mean, how can one be a ''mediocre photographer either technically or visually'' but then, excel in other areas? .. Such as? Cooking? Knitting? ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KooKunLa Posted September 21, 2011 Share #24 Posted September 21, 2011 Maybe a limited number of photographs, selected or curated, would work in conjunction with an ongoing process of building up a critical vocabulary. After a period the anonymous tag could be lifted and the photographer could then respond. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honcho Posted September 21, 2011 Share #25 Posted September 21, 2011 ....this thread has just prompted me to jump online and submit my application to study Photography (full time) - starting 2012.... I composed a rather long post earlier on this subject and decided to delete it for various reasons, but my advice to you in the deleted post was to submit yourself to full or part time learning or the likes of BIPP or RPS or an equivalent organisation in your own country and work through their distinction layers. If you really want to progress as a photographer you need a structured learning regime, constructive critique, commitment and self discipline in order to achieve your aspirations. I cannot see how a panel drawn from the members of this forum could have any credibility or value and who, exactly, would take their opinions seriously? I certainly would not! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted September 21, 2011 Share #26 Posted September 21, 2011 I totally agree with Bill, above. Most photographers, even the world's best (or especially them) take photos to be seen by as many people as possible, and not just experts. Therefore the reactions of experts alone (even if it were possible to determine who is an expert viewer of photos) would be sterile without the views of the people at whom the photos were aimed. Now of course we hope for illuminating responses, and I'm sure that sometimes we will get them, and others times perhaps not. Disagreements can provide the most valuable insights. What wouldn't be helpful is the dismissal by the pros of the work of amateurs, or vice-versa. The essence, I think, is to remember its not in any way a competitive exercise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzo Posted September 21, 2011 Share #27 Posted September 21, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I cannot see how a panel drawn from the members of this forum could have any credibility or value and who, exactly, would take their opinions seriously? I certainly would not! I see you rate the credibility of us members high! ps Don't forget you're one of us though. ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted September 21, 2011 Share #28 Posted September 21, 2011 This part is a bit confusing to be honest Bill. I mean, how can one be a ''mediocre photographer either technically or visually'' but then, excel in other areas? .. Such as? Cooking? Knitting? ... I understand Robert Capa was accomplished at macrame... Sorry, I did not articulate myself very well and disappeared up my own... argument. Take me, for example. I regard myself as a competent photographer with a reasonable eye - no more. I would never in a million years regard myself as adept in the arts of the digital "darkroom" - it bores me rigid to sit in front of a screen and fiddle with sliders - so I would not regard myself as qualified to advise in that regard. Simples Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
businessasusual Posted September 21, 2011 Share #29 Posted September 21, 2011 I cannot see how a panel drawn from the members of this forum could have any credibility or value and who, exactly, would take their opinions seriously? I certainly would not! Photographs never lie and so when a photographer on this forum is clearly talented and capable - obvious by their body of work - I would appreciate any comment from them. What I draw from those comments would be entirely up to me but I would be grateful that they were prepared to take the time. I have had some of my images reworked and really appreciated their perspective. One just needs to surf through the albums - and the great albums jump at out at you. Anyone submitting images for critique would, I expect, be taking the response seriously or they would not post anything at all. I don't know about your parts of the world - how accessible is formal Photography study for the majority of you? (Even then - there are teachers and then there are teachers, some show you how - others show you why!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted September 21, 2011 Share #30 Posted September 21, 2011 Photographs never lie and so when a photographer on this forum is clearly talented and capable - obvious by their body of work - I would appreciate any comment from them. What I draw from those comments would be entirely up to me but I would be grateful that they were prepared to take the time. I have had some of my images reworked and really appreciated their perspective. One just needs to surf through the albums - and the great albums jump at out at you. Anyone submitting images for critique would, I expect, be taking the response seriously or they would not post anything at all. I don't know about your parts of the world - how accessible is formal Photography study for the majority of you? (Even then - there are teachers and then there are teachers, some show you how - others show you why!) Some of the more interesting photos i've seen recently have been taken by kids with their camera phones. Not all of them by any means, there's a lot of crap out there, but some; those who are able to try things out for themselves rather than always trying to reproduce something good that they've seen before. I really do hesitate at the notion that the best way to learn is to listen to the experts. Its certainly one of many valuable things available to us, for which I'm hugely grateful, but I've heard some really penetrating observations of photos in galleries from people who've never held a camera in any serious way. In any event, the main beneficiaries of this, if its to work well, aren't just the photographers who submit their photos. Its all of us, because we can all learn new ways of seeing, and that for me is the exciting part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prunelle Posted September 21, 2011 Share #31 Posted September 21, 2011 I think this could work but I would like to suggest that perhaps there is committee of photographers whose work qualifies them to judge the submissions in the thread and this is why.... Markforce posted his photographs and was met with this response: ... His response: ... This is what happens in usual run of mill threads as they are now. The question I have is - how do we avoid an opinion from a poster whose work is insignificant, AT BEST, levelled at someone who would be posting to learn and or a poster whose works is insignificant AT BEST, attacking the author/s of critiques - with accusations of "them thinking they are better than everyone else." I believe if you find an answer to these questions - it's do-able! Yes, there are people here who think they are better than anyone else and they state it loudly. Unfortunately they are not. nobody here is because the real artists who would be able to write valuable critiques on our photos have better to do than participate to a photo forum. And I know how insignificant my "work" is, thank you. It's something I've always known better than you. Some of the more interesting photos i've seen recently have been taken by kids with their camera phones. Not all of them by any means, there's a lot of crap out there, but some; those who are able to try things out for themselves rather than always trying to reproduce something good that they've seen before. That's what we should do, try things for ourselves instead of reproducing things we've seen everywhere. I really do hesitate at the notion that the best way to learn is to listen to the experts. ...The problem with learning is that it must stop some time. After learning you must first apply what you've learnt and then add something personal to what you've learnt, instead of repeating the same recipe. Very few are actually capable of that and it won't be in spending time writing useless things on a forum that I will be once! lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
businessasusual Posted September 21, 2011 Share #32 Posted September 21, 2011 Some of the more interesting photos i've seen recently have been taken by kids with their camera phones. Not all of them by any means, there's a lot of crap out there, but some; those who are able to try things out for themselves rather than always trying to reproduce something good that they've seen before. I really do hesitate at the notion that the best way to learn is to listen to the experts. Its certainly one of many valuable things available to us, for which I'm hugely grateful, but I've heard some really penetrating observations of photos in galleries from people who've never held a camera in any serious way. In any event, the main beneficiaries of this, if its to work well, aren't just the photographers who submit their photos. Its all of us, because we can all learn new ways of seeing, and that for me is the exciting part. Absolutely, Peter. Wholeheartedly agree - but unfortunately those kids cannot give us feedback on this forum. Most of my lessons have come from everywhere but.....but here, feedback is what some are after. For those that don't want the feedback - perfect. For those who do and those who are happy to be selected to offer their time - why not - it would be these agreeing participants who would benefit and not at the expense of anyone else. We might be going in the same direction - just a different bus! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
businessasusual Posted September 21, 2011 Share #33 Posted September 21, 2011 Yes, there are people here who think they are better than anyone else and they state it loudly. Unfortunately they are not. nobody here is because the real artists who would be able to write valuable critiques on our photos have better to do than participate to a photo forum. Whether they are better or whether they are not - amounts to nothing more than an ingrained mental apartheid between inferiority and superiority and for the life of me I am still confused as which side you support. And I know how insignificant my "work" is, thank you. It's something I've always known better than you. Must be the former because of this obsessive need to be right and "better" ALL OF THE TIME. The problem with learning is that it must stop some time. Learning is a lifelong exercise - only a fool believes they know everything. And the very last thing is you learn is that you will never have the final say..only so much one can fit on a headstone. Now, what were we saying about having better things to do... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prunelle Posted September 21, 2011 Share #34 Posted September 21, 2011 Whether they are better or whether they are not - amounts to nothing more than an ingrained mental apartheid between inferiority and superiority and for the life of me I am still confused as which side you support. ... There ar no such things as inferiority and superiority! The best don't register to forums, that's all. They have their own stuff to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzo Posted September 21, 2011 Share #35 Posted September 21, 2011 I've been a member for the past five years now. I have yet to see someone else shouting here and there, '' two of my images were accepted as Mastershots at LFI ! '' ..... :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmldds Posted September 21, 2011 Share #36 Posted September 21, 2011 Is congress in session here? We all should ease up and just enjoy the art. I can safely assume that most members here are sufficiently privileged and do not have to worry about the next meal! Tri:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzo Posted September 21, 2011 Share #37 Posted September 21, 2011 I understand Robert Capa was accomplished at macrame... Always thought it was bizzilla he was accomplished at. ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 21, 2011 Share #38 Posted September 21, 2011 Some of the critical threads, especially concerning composition and graphic design have been very helpful to me. We have a few professional designers on both sides of the earth that reflect competent and differing approaches. I certainly would not mind critical opinions from anyone, and would be flattered to be critiqued especially by such persons, regardless of the outcome: positive or negative. Right now at home I am blessed to know two outstanding publishing graphic designers whose greatest advice to me so far has been, "Don't try to combine your photos on a single page. You don't work that way." One said, "Your dark side is susceptible to some good multi-image pages, but not the rest." It's quite humbling. For single images, well we will see. I'm preparing material for review for a show "at a real gallery", critiqued by published photographers. I truly doubt I'll make the grade. Critique is very difficult. There are at least two modes. One is to help an artist, craftsman, photographer to see his work from another point of view, or technical comments, and another is the art of placing the work within the perspective of historical contexts. What I fear the most are little battles where participants create circular critiques of the those making the critiques, and I include myself as one who has jumped onto such a carousel and still regret it. Take what one finds useful, put the rest away for future consideration or ignore it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzo Posted September 21, 2011 Share #39 Posted September 21, 2011 Wishing you the best of luck Pico. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allamande Posted September 21, 2011 Share #40 Posted September 21, 2011 This is an interesting discussion. After reading through this thread, I am still trying to understand the justification for the need to have some sort of a special means for honest or brutal critique in this forum. The anonymous posting exercise certainly didn't produce any "brutal" critique, IMHO. Of course, this could all be a matter of perception (and of mismatched expectations). I am not sure if those of us who participate in this discussion all have the same meaning in mind, when we say "critique." What makes a good critique? What is honest and brutal criticism? Saying things like: This does nothing for me....If her head was a bit to the right...If there was more action...this is just a snap....no excitement here....creepy....etc., or re-working someone's photograph to make it "better," do not make for honest and brutal criticism, IMO. I agree with Bill, one can be a great photographer and yet may or may not have the ability to help others become good photographers by providing essential criticism. On the flip side, there are some good photography critics out there who are not necessarily good photographers themselves. As to Karina's point, I personally learn a lot from this forum (particularly by observing the works of a small subset, and by reading some of the feedback and discussion in the photo forum as well as in the technical forums). But then I consider myself a serious amateur snapper (how is that for terminology?). If someone seriously wants to study photography, this is not going to be the place for it in any adequate way. That's why there are still art schools out there with photography departments (as a starting point). I am glad to hear that you signed up to study it. This place would be a good supplement, I would imagine. It also seems a little baffling to me that some members like Ivan (whose work I admire and respect a lot, and try to learn from, bit by bit --though a hopeless endeavor I must admit) went out of their way to work on these anonymously posted images with an unusually high level of enthusiasm that they don't often show for images that are posted with a signature where the poster is actually asking for C&C. Why is that? If we want to see (or write) honest/brutal criticism (whatever that means), it might be a good idea to start by responding to those posters who are actually asking for it. I need to make it clear that I consider exchanges that deteriorate into personal attacks, ego trips, and pompous lectures as nothing more than boring time wasters . Regards, Ece Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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