Buying lenses Pre-Digital M

[bpalme]

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So what was it like buying Leica lenses before the digital M? Could you walk into a dealer and get what you wanted off the shelf? Short waiting times?

Just curious.. also how much have prices increased in the past 5 years?

[tgray]

I've never bought a new Leica lens. Well maybe one - I bought it used but suspect it was actually gray market since it was shipped directly from a European dealer. Anyway, in early 2008, one could buy a 50 ASPH Summilux for less than $2000 US, if one purchased it from the UK and got the rebate Leica was offering then.

 

When I first started with Leica, around 2006-2007, I bought a last version 50 Summicron for $500 and M6's were right around $900. Noctiluxes were I think high $2k, low $3k. 75 Summiluxes were below $2k. You could get 28 Summicrons for a hair over $2k in late 2007/early 2008, while 28/2.8 ASPHs were around $1200 used if I recall correctly.

 

The new prices have risen for a variety of reasons. It's unfortunate that people use that as an excuse to elevate the used prices so rapidly as well. As a result, the used prices have gone up an incredible amount too.

[stunsworth]

Around 2002 I bought a Tri-Elmar and a Noctilux more or less ex stock from UK dealers. From memory the Noctilux was around 1500 GPB. When I sold it it went for over twice that.

[andybarton]

It's unfortunate that people use that as an excuse to elevate the used prices so rapidly as well. .

 

Used prices are subject to the laws of supply and demand, just as new ones are. New ones have to contend with currency fluctuations too.

[tgray]

Used prices are subject to the laws of supply and demand, just as new ones are. New ones have to contend with currency fluctuations too.

 

Thanks for the economics lesson.

[wda]

When I bought my new M8, towards the end of its run, there was a concurrent sales promotion in the UK on lenses with healthy discounts. I bought my 28mm and 75mm lenses at that time. Stocks were generally good, though they became depleted quite quickly towards the end of the promotion. Ah - heady times! When I returned to buy a more exotic lens the famine had started!

 

Interestingly, or rather frustratingly, Leica Dealerships in the UK went out of fashion and it was virtually impossible even to visit a dealer (at some distance) to handle a new camera. Even Leica Milton Keynes had none to show visitors. Now dealerships are being supported by customers but starved of new stock by Leica, unless you live in China it seems. Perhaps the days of plenty will return, but how many new Leica customers will be left wanting stock?

[luigi bertolotti]

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Ah... the old times ante-digital... : it's more than 25 years that I walk regularly on some Leica dealers, and famous e-shoppers like Leicashop were operativeon the Net well before the M8 intro,,, my personal impressions are :

 

1) The NUMBER of new lenses available new on the shelves was lower than today.

2) But there weren't the shortages that are normal today for some items... you could be rather sure that, if asked, the dealer told that any lens on the list could arrive in 1 month or less (but I'm sure I never asked for a Noctilux... ) I think this was also a consequence of the fact that Leica, as a Company / Factory, was managed very differently from now.

3) The used market was not so different than today... old "normal" items (like Elmars 50 / Elmarits 90 etc...) reasonable, newer items (Summicron 50 / 35, Summilux 50 etc), a bit higher.... very recent items , as new, priced not too distant from the price of new from the shelf.

4) Old rarities had fluctuations of their own... with some collectibles that had moments of "fashion",,, some of them with higher prices than now (Thambar, for instance, and also some old long Telyt) . My impression is that the concentration of interest towards the "modern" lenses for digital Ms has lowered the mean cost of collectibles in medium conditions : vvalues remain high only for very fine and complete (box etc) items.

[treeplanter]

When I bought my MP from a local dealer (Dearborn, Michigan USA) back in 2004, I also purchased a 35mm Summicron asph and a 90mm F2.8 tele at the same time. The dealer had a full compliment of lenses sitting in his display cabinet. Even had a 50mm F1.0 Noctilux. The good ole' days I guess.

 

Jim B.

[pico]

In the Seventies, I could walk into Altman Camera, Chicago, and buy and body or lens I wanted, and when Altman's closed (a tragedy), it was Helix with Selwin Schwartz who once worked at Altman's. Anything, just any lens or body. Over the counter. Cash. Thanks. Bye.

 

But that was then. This is now. I have my stock and need no more (but it would be cool to have a couple more M9s).

[adan]

I don't know about 5 years ago, but the 75 Summicron was introduced in the US in Spring 2005 at $2395 new. The 50 f/1.4 ASPH was then $2295.

 

In 2003, a 35 or 90 Summicron ran $1995, 24 and 21 Elmarit ASPHs were $2495. 50 Summicron was about $1295. Leica M6ttls were $1995.

 

As to availability - the stores that carried Leica tended to keep 3-4 basic lenses on hand (50, 35, 90 and (pick one) a 24, 21, or 28). But among six stores that carried Leica in Denver I could usually find most of the focal lengths except for the Noctilux and 75 Summilux.

 

However - affecting both availability and price - Leica used to run "Leica Days," with a sales rep in the store, who brought a kit of ALL the lenses and cameras for display and limited try-outs. Lenses and cameras ordered during those events would be delivered within a couple of weeks (if not available from store stock) - AND were discounted 10%. So I purchased two M6ttls @ $1799 each in 2003.

 

Leica Days continued into the M8 era, although the price discounts faded away. Lenses were generally available with a delivery time of 2-3 days (if Leica USA had them in stock) to 3 weeks right up until the M9 deluge. The last Leica Day-type event, anywhere that I could get to, was the official M9 intro for our region (9/9/09) in Salt Lake City - since replaced by the pay-for-the-privilege "Road Shows."

_____________

 

Edit: Ahh, Helix. My usual counterman was Mike Tanimura, but I was allowed into the presence of Selwin if I wanted to touch a Leica Safari R3 or some such.

[pico]

[....]Edit: Ahh, Helix. My usual counterman was Mike Tanimura, but I was allowed into the presence of Selwin if I wanted to touch a Leica Safari R3 or some such.

 

I was into Helix when they opened. No big deal, Andy, I'm just older than you. It was Selwin who came from the background whenever anyone was looking at Leicas. He didn't take me seriously because I was a long-haired blond newspaper photographer. He woke up when I bought two black M4s. It's all $$ to Selwin. ("Oi! I'm selling to a Goy!")

 

Selwin was the biggest kiss-ass Altman ever had. He brought in the doctors and dentists.

[jaapv]

Those are USA prices and Leica is an European company. At one point we were paying about 1.50 Euro for one Dollar and shop prices were adjusted accordingly. I would have to delve back into lenses, but I paid 3000 Deutschmark for an M6 in 1983 and that was twice the average monthly wages back then. Delivery time was a couple of weeks.

I don't know about 5 years ago, but the 75 Summicron was introduced in the US in Spring 2005 at $2395 new. The 50 f/1.4 ASPH was then $2295.

 

In 2003, a 35 or 90 Summicron ran $1995, 24 and 21 Elmarit ASPHs were $2495. 50 Summicron was about $1295. Leica M6ttls were $1995.

 

As to availability - the stores that carried Leica tended to keep 3-4 basic lenses on hand (50, 35, 90 and (pick one) a 24, 21, or 28). But among six stores that carried Leica in Denver I could usually find most of the focal lengths except for the Noctilux and 75 Summilux.

 

However - affecting both availability and price - Leica used to run "Leica Days," with a sales rep in the store, who brought a kit of ALL the lenses and cameras for display and limited try-outs. Lenses and cameras ordered during those events would be delivered within a couple of weeks (if not available from store stock) - AND were discounted 10%. So I purchased two M6ttls @ $1799 each in 2003.

 

Leica Days continued into the M8 era, although the price discounts faded away. Lenses were generally available with a delivery time of 2-3 days (if Leica USA had them in stock) to 3 weeks right up until the M9 deluge. The last Leica Day-type event, anywhere that I could get to, was the official M9 intro for our region (9/9/09) in Salt Lake City - since replaced by the pay-for-the-privilege "Road Shows."

_____________

 

Edit: Ahh, Helix. My usual counterman was Mike Tanimura, but I was allowed into the presence of Selwin if I wanted to touch a Leica Safari R3 or some such.

[bpalme]

Well... it's a real shame it has gone up so much. I understand they're hand made and it takes time for the glass to cure, no compromises in quality and all that ...and I know they're making efforts to double production again but it sure seems like they're moving at a snails pace.

[adan]

Those are USA prices and Leica is an European company. At one point we were paying about 1.50 Euro for one Dollar and shop prices were adjusted accordingly.

 

True - and US prices don't include a built-in value-added tax, so what one actually paid locally, with sales tax, was +/- 7% more than the "price tag."

 

And, at those prices, Leica got themselves into a terrible financial jam c. 2004. The income from sales did not cover their real expenses. Eventually - once revived (digital) demand allowed it - prices had to rise.

 

Which also explains Leica's, shall we say - "deliberate" - approach to expanding production. They've looked into the abyss, and are in no rush to end up with excess capacity yet again once the M9 bubble recedes.

 

Eventually we may hope for a new balance: which is better for customers, in terms of availability, than the past two years; and better for Leica, in terms of income vs. expenses, than 2004.

[asmith]

Until recently, say ten years ago, most official Leica dealers in UK kept most items in stock or could obtain them in days - M an R bodies and lenses, binoculars, telescopes etc. The first time I had a longer wait was for the then new M7. Even for the new 50mm Summilux Asph I waited. Only a few days from ordering. My first relatively long wait was for my first M8. My longest wait to date was for my 35 SummiluxFLE which was more than six months. There is no doubt that the popularity of the digital Ms is responsible for the present situation.

Alwyn

[philipus]

Fwiw.

 

Being new to Leica, I don't know what it was like before digital Ms.

 

But also being new to Leica, I can't say it's been difficult for me to find lenses to build my M3 and LTM kits. I've bought several used lenses and my impression is that there are a lot of them out there. One just has to find dealers with reasonable prices. Surfing around one can easily identify those who elect to operate in the higher price spectrum.

 

I don't own an aspheric lens but from the various images I have seen and reviews I have read, non-aspheric Leica lenses perform wonderfully well. So provided one can be happy with not having the latest lens, there are lots of alternatives out there.

 

Cheerio

Philip

[colonel]

Around 2002 I bought a Tri-Elmar and a Noctilux more or less ex stock from UK dealers. From memory the Noctilux was around 1500 GPB. When I sold it it went for over twice that.

 

that was a horrible thing to do (just kidding)

 

I just got into new Leica lenses this year - if I had bought in 2002 I would have taken three for the price of one today !

 

On the other hand I predicted that Citibank stock was a bargain at $1 per share in 2009 but didn't buy, and now they are $28.8 - thats 28x return, not bad

 

my point is that stocks and lenses can go up and down, so best to buy today what you need or are going to use and enjoy today. Tomorrow never comes and yesterday can't be returned to ..... or something like that

[bpalme]

that was a horrible thing to do (just kidding)

 

I just got into new Leica lenses this year - if I had bought in 2002 I would have taken three for the price of one today !

 

On the other hand I predicted that Citibank stock was a bargain at $1 per share in 2009 but didn't buy, and now they are $28.8 - thats 28x return, not bad

 

my point is that stocks and lenses can go up and down, so best to buy today what you need or are going to use and enjoy today. Tomorrow never comes and yesterday can't be returned to ..... or something like that

You would have done well with Citibank but more like 2.8 X. There was a 1 for 10 reverse split of Citigroup back in May.