Ronan Posted August 31, 2011 Share #21 Posted August 31, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was taught to do most of the work with the camera to limit post-processing. Framing properly was one of the biggest lessons. Anyone that shoots and crops later because he/she can't frame properly is a bad photographer. Now some shots NEED to be crop later because something new appear (a new way to see the image, etc etc etc). Thats acceptable and normal, we can't think of everything right there and then. But do i really care? No... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Hi Ronan, Take a look here Cropping prints and borders. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
NB23 Posted August 31, 2011 Share #22 Posted August 31, 2011 Well now . . . that remark pretty much flushes your credibility down the toilet. My credibility? My credibity varies from person to person and is more a variable of the person's vision of life state of mind rather then a solid truth. I have no problem with not being credible to you. After all, even Jesus is not credible to half of the population. And Elvis. And the Dalai Lama. And hcb. And lady Gaga. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzo Posted August 31, 2011 Share #23 Posted August 31, 2011 Mister "severe crop extreme photoshop contrast" calls himself "we"? Azzo, you should take note instead of giving photoshop makeups to your subjects. Just saying. I'm not even going to bother answering you Ned. .. You're not worth the time! My answer is to the person who clicked the ' Thanks ' button beneath your comment. .. Prunelle, Learn how to walk before you try to run. To my eyes, you just got a camera yesterday. Your crap snaps give you away! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.poulton Posted August 31, 2011 Share #24 Posted August 31, 2011 Hi NB23, I really like your photographs (from what I've seen on the 'I love my MP' thread) and hopefully you will be able to share more with us in the near future? Regarding borders, and in reply specifically to this thread, well my take on it is that it's a style nothing more, nothing less, so why do people get so hung up on it! Personally I like borders, and I also like the idea of not cropping an image, although with my own work I have to profess that I am not good enough yet to nail the shot each and every time without having to crop occasionally, although I am improving (Of course there is the argument that if you shoot 35mm, any cropping can be detrimental to image quality, as opposed to medium format and above where there is much greater latitude to crop?) Keep up the good work - I like to think that your images can act as an inspiration and benchmark for my own work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted August 31, 2011 Share #25 Posted August 31, 2011 NB23, I respect your personal credo, shoot upside down if you want, but to suggest that your way is superior in any way, is a load of bollocks. Shows a level of immaturity in my opinion. Your disrespectful comment to Azzo is the equivalent of a primary school pupil criticising the Headmaster. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted August 31, 2011 Share #26 Posted August 31, 2011 Anyone that shoots and crops later because he/she can't frame properly is a bad photographer. If they habitually crop perhaps you are right (unless they only have a 28mm lens and don't want to get any closer to the polar bear). But there are many things that the photographer has no control over and when people make a rule about not cropping and call fellow photographers who do crop bad it shows to me a lack of experience and maturity. Not cropping may be a nice rule to use on a personal level (for fun), but if an experienced photographer can frame an image, and can still go on to make a judgement as to whether it can be refined with a small crop, it shows sophistication of intellectual thought, not that they are a bad photographer. It is the image that is important, not how it was made, and putting not to crop at the top of a priority list is a mechanistic and sterile action. For myself I haven't cropped an image in a long, long time but I'm not about to make a rule about it and say I never would. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 31, 2011 Share #27 Posted August 31, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Anyone that shoots and crops later because he/she can't frame properly is a bad photographer. "Wildlife photography is cropping photography " - the late Fritz Pölking Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 31, 2011 Share #28 Posted August 31, 2011 IAnyone that shoots and crops later because he/she can't frame properly is a bad photographer What if the subject doesn't lend itself to a 3/2 ratio? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted August 31, 2011 Share #29 Posted August 31, 2011 This thread prompted me to look up the entry on "Picture-Cropping" in a journalist's handbook I bought in 1976. Here are some of the examples of how to do it. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (Leslie Sellers, Keeping up the Style, Pitman, 1975) Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (Leslie Sellers, Keeping up the Style, Pitman, 1975) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/160633-cropping-prints-and-borders/?do=findComment&comment=1780854'>More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 31, 2011 Share #30 Posted August 31, 2011 And what If one visualizes (mentally crops in the VF) the end photograph at the time of capture (say that the image is not 3:2 ratio, or the lens mounted is too wide or long to capture a scene and time is of the essence, or there is a cliff ahead that prevents moving forward, etc), then crops in PP to match his/her intent? I'd say this photographer exhibits a level of vision, experience and skill not common to most. Walker Evans was a fabulous photographer, one whose work I greatly admire. The book "Walker Evans at Work" illustrates how he cropped when the situation dictated the need or preference, before or after the fact. Doesn't diminish my opinion of his work or skill in the least. To the contrary, it shows a master at work. In the end, the print is what matters to me. (And I much prefer not to see black borders on them, for aesthetic reasons.) Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveleo Posted August 31, 2011 Share #31 Posted August 31, 2011 And what If one visualizes (mentally crops in the VF) the end photograph at the time of capture (say that the image is not 3:2 ratio, or the lens mounted is too wide or long to capture a scene and time is of the essence, or there is a cliff ahead that prevents moving forward, etc), then crops in PP to match his/her intent? I'd say this photographer exhibits a level of vision, experience and skill not common to most. Walker Evans was a fabulous photographer, one whose work I greatly admire. The book "Walker Evans at Work" illustrates how he cropped when the situation dictated the need or preference, before or after the fact. Doesn't diminish my opinion of his work or skill in the least. To the contrary, it shows a master at work. In the end, the print is what matters to me. (And I much prefer not to see black borders on them, for aesthetic reasons.) Jeff Of course. I shoot 35mm and digital APS-c and only print 8X10 (99.5% of the time) . I "crop mentally" in the viewfinder and more accurately on the computer. I am sure that many many others do similarly. We are not incompetent. "No cropping" is a good guide for teaching students to think before hitting the shutter button. But at some point, you need to go beyond what you learned in school. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted August 31, 2011 Share #32 Posted August 31, 2011 Walker Evans was a fabulous photographer, one whose work I greatly admire. The book "Walker Evans at Work" illustrates how he cropped when the situation dictated the need or preference, before or after the fact. Doesn't diminish my opinion of his work or skill in the least. To the contrary, it shows a master at work. Jeff A fine photographer! He was in the tradition of visualisation later often quoted as pre-visualisation when applied to Adams (although I don't think Adams ever said pre-) and yes, so long as the final image was in his mind thinking ahead to the print, cropping was never a problem for Evans, nor a myriad of top photographers before or after. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 31, 2011 Share #33 Posted August 31, 2011 There is of course nothing about cropping and black borders that distinguishes between good photographers and bad photographers. Nor, as others have said, is cropping avoidable if a photograph is to be used in an editorial or similar context. However, I do personally think there is something more pure about an uncropped photograph. As already stated, this has nothing to do with good or bad photography but, for me, is more of an existential question. No doubt it is a process thing rather than an end result thing - what Bill might describe as the "journey". I don't even like the 2:3 proportions of a 35mm frame but I increasingly find that, given the choice between cropping and not cropping, unless there is some glaring reason to crop out a particular part of a photo, the uncropped version usually just looks more right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 31, 2011 Share #34 Posted August 31, 2011 so long as the final image was in his mind thinking ahead to the print, cropping was never a problem for Evans, nor a myriad of top photographers before or after. Evans did whatever it took to get the best view, even after the fact. He worried less about the perfect print quality; but he felt strongly about the right view and crop. Toward this end, he frequently shot the same subject many times (even within moments) with different camera formats (he used 10 or more) and/or different lenses to explore variations. Is this any different than cropping? If he knew the perfect view in advance, he wouldn't have explored so many variations. And then later he often cropped, sometimes by cutting the negative (much to the chagrin of some of his later printers and editors). He kept all of his 'mistakes' and constantly worked and explored to get the best simple clear statement in his work. Simplicity often involves complexity, and Evans wasn't shy about doing whatever it took to get the result he liked. His approach was far different from HCB's, and some might argue less pure. To me he is among the great visionaries of our time...often vision takes hard work, and many forms. Robert Frank is another terrific photographer who kept negatives, notes and documents that help us better understand some of his methods. The expanded edition of the book "Looking In," for instance, shows how he marked up contact sheets with crop lines. Who knows if he "visualized" the result earlier on? I don't care one way or the other...but I sure love his work. Again, many strokes. I used "visualization" as but one approach to cropping and to photography. To be a talented and exceptional photographer is a broader concept, involving many different approaches. Those here using terms like "bad photographer" for cropping-after-the fact (whether or not the best view was visualized in advance) have a lot to learn about the rich history of photography. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted August 31, 2011 Share #35 Posted August 31, 2011 I increasingly find that, given the choice between cropping and not cropping, unless there is some glaring reason to crop out a particular part of a photo, the uncropped version usually just looks more right. I'm with you, and as well as uncropped looking right I like the happy accidents that can happen around the edges of an image. They add to the spirit of the situation. Yet making a rule of it still worries me. The people who are saying anybody who crops is a bad photographer presumably make the next logical step and discard any image made that doesn't also nail the perfect exposure. The arrangement and levels of tone in an image is just as important as the objects/things they are trying to compose, tone being a constituent of composition. So not only should they be going for uncropped, but also an exposure that doesn't need any post processing, otherwise the purity of their concept is shown to be shallow. Unless composition is taken seriously, and all constituents taken into account, and made to work, then they have backed themselves right into a corner that there is no getting out of. Reductio ad absurdum........unless they are a genius, which isn't very likely. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 31, 2011 Share #36 Posted August 31, 2011 Mister "severe crop extreme photoshop contrast" calls himself "we"? Azzo, you should take note instead of giving photoshop makeups to your subjects. Just saying. I know Ivan. I have met him. And his work beats most other forum members into a cocked hat. Your continual aggression towards Ivan has gone far enough and will no longer be tolerated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted August 31, 2011 Share #37 Posted August 31, 2011 If one is an amateur or enthusiast; what real difference does either really make? As an amateur tries different boarders and learns more about composition through the realisation the framing may not have made the best of the situation; they improve their understanding of how images work and what can affect them (for better or worse). They (hopefully) improve as time progresses. If one is a professional; it's unlikely clients will want boarders (of the photographer's design) imposed on 'their' images. A pro's skill and experience should negate the need for crops on any significant number of images, but it's highly likely (especially in publishing) that the images will be cropped without consent. Although experience in specific sectors will ensure the photographer understands how to best frame and compose for the client's needs (reducing the need for extreme crops). If one is a fine art photographer... one can do what one likes. I think striving to produce images that require no crop it's a fantastic and worthy aim. I strive for this every time I hold my camera. I have yet to reach the level where I'm content with my performance. I don't particularly care for boarders. As with picture frames, some look good and enhance the image, others (many to my eyes) detract. No single boarder seems to work for everything, and so I like to view an image in a decent area of white or black space. Others will be different. I respect that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted August 31, 2011 Share #38 Posted August 31, 2011 I know Ivan. I have met him. And his work beats most other forum members into a cocked hat. Your continual aggression towards Ivan has gone far enough and will no longer be tolerated. I would like you to note that it is always him who is after me. It seems that he is always on my back and yet I am the agressor? I would like it if you could be intolerant about that fact also, for the sake of objectivity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 31, 2011 Share #39 Posted August 31, 2011 Intolerance by any party, will not be tolerated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted August 31, 2011 Share #40 Posted August 31, 2011 Intolerance by any party, will not be tolerated Thank you. And I will add that I like most of his work. Sure, when I continually get poked I retaliate, but it is mostly as a sport. I'm not bitter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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