Made in Germany means something!

[mattnnz]

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One thing I do think that when a company moves its operations to another country for cost-saving, it often appears to be accompanied by a cost-saving push in other areas as well. This means that the product quality suffers. I'm pretty sure the sweet boys and girls who make iphones could make a very nice Leica as well. These are symptoms of foolish corporate leadership who can't think past the next quarter and think they can cost-cut their way to a sustainable business. I don't have much quarrel with a person in Asia making a living but I am an old-fashioned guy who likes his motorcycles made in Italy, cameras made in Germany, shoes made in England and food grown where I live. I may not look at things like ChiLX1 but we probably shop similarly. Peace guys lets get out and take some pictures!

[bill]

I used to work for the World's largest business software company. My customer contracts were raised in Romania and my expenses were paid from there. SRs in the EMEA timezone were managed in Egypt. I regularly used resources in Chennai or Bangalore to supplement my "onshore" resource. There is nothing wrong with "rightshoring"; it reduces cost to serve and enables service to "follow the sun" to provide 24/7 coverage. It's not all sweatshops and slavery...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[earleygallery]

Of course the biggest problem with companies moving production and service jobs to the far east, making their domestic employees redundant in the process, is that eventually they will run out of customers with enough income to buy their product/service. Of course it may only be a temporary glitch as they effectively relocate their power bases, and the best people relocate.

 

N'th degree maybe, but it is clear that the economies of India and China especially are growing much faster than the economists previously expected, and are set to overtake the major western economies in a relatively short timescale.

 

Why will they need to buy anything from us when they are fully developed and have already secured the best of the Western companies/human resources?

[ChiILX1]

That's exactly it. Generally incomes here in the US have been stagnate and falling in the past 30 years (proportionally to living expenses and dollar value) in a large part due to outsourcing. Consumer spending couldn't continue with that trend so cheap credit was pumped in to replace income.

 

We're nearing the end of that chapter. Some argue that while manufacturer's were just short-sighted, bankers were far-sighted thinking of shoring up capital to turn everyone into capital-less tenants.

 

Maybe it's a futile fight to buy carefully, but it's at least principled. Even if it is futile, I don't think people would or could stand for sustained living in the eventual direction we seem to be headed. As everyone has said, capital has been relocated elsewhere. With domestic credit dried up, what's going to happen?

 

On another note, I found this slideshow online (you can just scroll down to see the images) Leica Tour: Inside a Camera Company at a Crossroads | Raw File. The picture of the lens inspection on the wall is awesome and must result in incredible quality. No X1 parts in view but I think it was before announcement.

[dickgrafixstop]

I diagnose a severe case of cranial-rectum inversion here. Do the cameras work? Are they

fairly priced? Are they functionally desirable? Is the manufacturer obeying local laws and

customs? Anything else is first class "caca de toro".

[andybarton]

No X1 parts in view but I think it was before announcement.

 

There might well be another reason. Perhaps the X1 isn't made in the same factory...

[ChiILX1]

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I diagnose a severe case of cranial-rectum inversion here. Do the cameras work? Are they

fairly priced? Are they functionally desirable? Is the manufacturer obeying local laws and

customs? Anything else is first class "caca de toro".

 

Actually I'm afraid you are displaying a different sort of inversion :

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[djsteb]

And whose is this?

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Absolutely correct but they do NOT have a right to success only the equal right to pursue it.

[pop]

I diagnose a severe case of cranial-rectum inversion here. Do the cameras work? Are they

fairly priced? Are they functionally desirable? Is the manufacturer obeying local laws and

customs? Anything else is first class "caca de toro".

 

Thank you for that very impressive and to the point diagnosis. Let's take it step by step:

 

Does the camera work?

 

That might be the OP's initial concern: does the assertion that the product was "made" in Germany enhance or reduce the chance of the product being of an exceptionally high quality? - We're still waiting for the answer to this one, I think.

 

Are they fairly priced?

 

The answer to this question depends a bit on the "direction" in which the fairness is supposed to work. Is it fairer if the manufacturer lowers his margin a bit so that the well-to-do hobbyist has to spend only 95% of a month's income on another luxury item instead of 100% ? Or is it fairer if the manufacturer raises the price of said luxury item a bit so that the workers in his off-shore factory can work without being killed off by toxic fumes or so that the same worker can send one more child to school?

 

Are they functionally desirable?

 

That appears to be quite independent of the place where the product is "made".

 

Is the manufacturer obeying local laws and customs?

 

"Local" as seen from where? Let's assume - just for argument's sake - that your (the customer's) country forbids children's labour, exposing the workers to high levels of toxic substances and poisoning the public water supply. Let's also assume - again for argument's sake - that there was another country where all those things are allowed.

 

Are you really willing to buy from a manufacturer who moves his factories from "your" country to the other one in order to avoid "your" legislation and to save on production costs?

[NZDavid]

Of course the biggest problem with companies moving production and service jobs to the far east, making their domestic employees redundant in the process, is that eventually they will run out of customers with enough income to buy their product/service. Of course it may only be a temporary glitch as they effectively relocate their power bases, and the best people relocate.

 

N'th degree maybe, but it is clear that the economies of India and China especially are growing much faster than the economists previously expected, and are set to overtake the major western economies in a relatively short timescale.

 

Why will they need to buy anything from us when they are fully developed and have already secured the best of the Western companies/human resources?

 

Perhaps these growing economies will relocate manufacture to cheaper places in the West?

[earleygallery]

That's the logical outcome, we will be the 'sweatshop' countries for the wealthier newer economies. Then the process will go full circle again, but how long will that take? The Chinese are actually investing heavily in Africa, that's their 'sweatshop'. It's happening right now.

 

We shouldn't be too surprised. The Roman Empire didn't last forever either.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

 

If you look @ the history of the USofA in the 19th Century you see that in the first part of the 19th Century the USofA was a small part of industrial production Worldwide. By the end of the 19th Century it had become a greater industrial producer than all of Europe together.

 

The USofA did this by a combination of copying the best of Europe & the rest of the World, investing in the future, making public education & public infrastructure a priority & w/ all of that developing a society in which an ever growing base of people could go on to develop a World that had not existed before. People who were being paid well enough to buy themselves an ever expanding piece of this newly evolving pie.

 

A more highly paid worker than their European counterpart. The worker in the USofA also for the most part worked in a more technologically mechanized workplace than their European equivalent.

 

From the middle to the end of the 19th Century the standard of living in the USofA rose as the cost of living went down.

 

This set of circumstances is the basis of 2 concepts which permeate the North American psyche: 1. "New is better." This was basically true from the middle to the end of the 19th Century. Historically things in that time period were not only getting better they were also becoming more affordable. 2. "Life was better in the good old days." As the second half of the 19th century progressed people had a life which was on average better than their past life had been & there was a track record that said what was to come would be even better for themselves & their children.

 

Look around you. Where is this or part of this happening on a large scale in the World today?

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[NZDavid]

One reason the Roman Empire collapsed was a shortage of energy and materials -- the difficulty of maintaining supply lines across vast distances in order to sustain garrisons in far-flung regions (including keeping those bolshy Britons in line -- which of course they never managed).

 

There is no logical reason why today's leading economies should keep going forever. Exponential growth -- if we keep on doing things in exactly the same way -- is simply unsustainable. What if (or when) oil and gas run out? Hydrogen cells, solar cells, a return to airships, tea clippers? Who knows, but other raw materials are not infinite either: rare elements used to make LCDs and LEDs, for example, and many other tech products, could also run out.

 

If some of these scenarios do become reality, even partly, then we may be forced to become more self-reliant sooner rather than later. Globalization will then become harder. What unequivocally is not an option is to imitate that large bird a few posts earlier instead of being open to new possibilities and actively pursuing them.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello David,

 

The World will probably not run out oil or many other minerals for some time to come. It is more likely that the productive capacity will increase rather than decline as time goes on. The majority of the World's problems today have more to do w/ distribution than they do w/ production.

 

Remember please: As we all read this 1/2 of the World's population does not have a clean glass of water.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[businessasusual]

For the next bunfight, try figuring out what the CE mark means;).

 

 

Conformité Européenne

 

I am smiling about debate on slavery, exploitation etc - ironic that the countries of which we speak have the strongest economies in the world - BRIC - we'll probably all end up on a production line employed by them in the not too distant future. (unless of course those plans are thwarted by another world war). Seem far fetched...watch this space.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Karina,

 

There has often been another war. Sometimes people see the World they were part of or wanted to be part of slipping away & see aggressive action as the way to keep what they think should be theirs or to keep what was theirs before. Sometimes people just want something they never had before.

 

Until World War I gave aggressive Wars a bad name many people openly advocated for what I just wrote about above. People advocating this were often the businesses, royalty, political parties & governments of the States they were a part of or sometimes they were the same of the States they wanted to influence.

 

It seems the World is going back to where it was before.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[NZDavid]

Michael, there is a lot about upcoming shortage of rare earth elements, e.g. gallium and indium. (I believe lanthanum was used in the early Summicrons.) More reason for Made in China? Just a few articles:

 

Rare Earth Metals Shortage Made Worse by Smuggling at Oil Price

Global supply of rare earth elements could be wiped out by 2012

The Rare Earth Metal's Shortage - Forbes.com

 

There may be huge supplies of oil remaining but at huge depths. Fracking for natural gas from shale is taking off. As supplies of traditional sources dwindle, these sources will become more economic but at greater risk.

 

Not quite sure how all this is relevant in the least to the original question.

 

Karina, thanks, I always thought CE meant "Consumer Electronics". Or Caffe Espresso perhaps...

[noeffred]

The CE logo means either that the product complies with the applicable EU directives for that product or simply "China Export"

 

But not to worry! We are talking about 2 totally different logos here! The China Export one has the C and E a bit closer together... impossible to mix them up wouldn't you agree?!

HoaxBuster - CE - China Export

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again David,

 

Maybe not quite as much of a shortage as people might think.

 

Talk created the early 1970's oil crisis when there was both more oil available & there were more reserves available than ever before. Interestingly today there is even more oil available & there are even more reserves than there were then. After many years of expanding use.

 

Sometimes people's understanding of & therefore their actions in the World are the result of their response to marketing. The oil shortage noted above is a classic example of people who control the data/material being able to manipulate others into thinking there is a shortage in a situation where there is an expanding supply.

 

Rare earth elements mostly come from a part of the World pretty much unknown to outsiders in a country (China) that is controlled by a relatively closed society. Industry within this closed society offered rare earth elements to the outside World for a time period long enough for their potential to begin to be developed & for China to see enough of the direction of their development to formulate their own industrial base to expand in this direction.

 

With the need established & a platform for expanding in that direction assured - people want their cell phones, etc - China is providing for its indigenous producers first. A closed society w/ no alternatives can simply say they looked @ what is there & there was very little so: Who will pay more?

 

When the Shah of Iran wanted to buy more armarments from the USofA but didn't have the money Henry Kissenger, then working for Richard Nixon, said to him "Why don't you raise the price of your oil from $3 a barrel to $20? The World will pay". He did & so did the World.

 

Others also raised their prices: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Texas, Indonesia, Nigeria & so on. Even tho it didn't cost any of them a penny more to mine their oil.

 

That was the birth of the first oil crisis & all the retrospective rationalizations that followed.

 

Perhaps there might be some of that here.

 

When someone tells you they have found a way to levitate using gravity waves: Before you call a physicist to investigate it might be prudent to contact a magician.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pico]

I have been married a # of times. Among my wives are included a number of reasonably good lawyers any one of whom could easily drive a very large truck thru the loopholes I just read.

 

There is the written law and the spirit of the law. The later cannot possibly be put into exact wording and it never will be. It is like in the USA, scholarly law literature almost never uses the word *'justice' because to do so exposes all the vagaries of language, which we all know is vulnerable to our human nature.

 

I'll bet there are several descriptions of "Made in Germany" and as only a former law student and legal scholar I'm sure I can throw a net over any loophole your wives might propose, and that's enough. The spirit of the law will prevail. I'm especially confident in German law in that regard.

 

*For an outstanding explanation of what I tried to express I recommend the book Just Silences: The Limits and Possibilities of Modern Law by Marianne Constable