250swb Posted August 21, 2011 Share #21 Posted August 21, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry for the long response but some statements just have to be challenged if anything is ever going to change. Its always encouraging when people are brave enough to lead by example, well done! I had an idea where you could start. There are a lot of gold plated electrical connections inside your PC, cameras, cars, TV's, etc. Gold that I bet wasn't mined in Germany, or indeed anywhere else in the Western world. Somebody on poor wages living somewhere in the world went underground doing a back breaking job to mine the gold so the developed world could bask in luxury. I admit I couldn't do without all those things so I'll only be able help you along with some applause I'm afraid. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 Hi 250swb, Take a look here Made in Germany means something!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
phancj Posted August 21, 2011 Share #22 Posted August 21, 2011 It seems so obvious now that these "Made in XXX" threads almost always end this way.... CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spylaw4 Posted August 21, 2011 Share #23 Posted August 21, 2011 Its always encouraging when people are brave enough to lead by example, well done! <snip> Somebody on poor wages living somewhere in the world <snip> Steve IMO this raises the question as to what is a decent wage and how are you to determine it? Is it to be what in "our" world is a decent wage or is it to be relative to their living standard? If they were paid a "decent" wage, could you afford the resulting items? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anupmc Posted August 21, 2011 Share #24 Posted August 21, 2011 ... That's better than probably all 100% Chinese manufactured and assembled cameras undisputedly. Rubbish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted August 21, 2011 Share #25 Posted August 21, 2011 IMO this raises the question as to what is a decent wage and how are you to determine it?Is it to be what in "our" world is a decent wage or is it to be relative to their living standard? If they were paid a "decent" wage, could you afford the resulting items? It's certainly true that it is difficult to determine what a decent wage ought to be. However, indecent wages or working conditions are often easy to recognize. The difficulty there lies, of course, with the reliability of the sources. Worker's wages - especially in the countries known for exploitative working conditions - usually are orders of magnitudes smaller than the retail prices of the finished products. Simply raising the amount which reaches the people actually working on a product would raise the price by a ridiculous amount. There's another catch, of course. Most manufacturers and sellers add their margins simply as a percentage instead of their real costs. Hence, raising a worker's daily income from - say - 50 to 75 cents might raise the retail price from 50 to 75 dollars. In theory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnloumiles Posted August 22, 2011 Share #26 Posted August 22, 2011 WOW Condesending Ivy League socialistic clap trap is even invading photography forums now. You would think that with the list of Socialist Countries which have failed growing by the day these "gifted" people with highly tuned minds and IQs might just begin to question whether the whole stupid theory is fatally flawed. Or maybe that's just me. Have a wonderful day - courtesy of the Capaitalist System ! I love the new mentality by the right, the one where being educated is for stupid people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnnz Posted August 22, 2011 Share #27 Posted August 22, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, johnloumiles stupid is a stupid does. It depends on what you call an "education". Much of what passes for education these days is little more than indoctrination. Those of us who have been in liberal arts classes know how it works. Agree with teacher = good grade. That and the constant ego stroking "you are the future elites", "it's to you to make a difference","you're the best and brightest" under the right system with us in charge we could implement things to were everyone would have a fair chance. Never mind that in practice when such systems are implemented, educated people are first into the prisons. These "exploitative" jobs in the developing world are better than these people's next best alternatives. These jobs have enabled women's rights in a real way. Women are able to earn real money and with money comes the ability to make real choices in their lives. These so called "exploitative" jobs have lifted more people out the kind of poverty where people don't have enough to eat than all of the foreign aid from the west put together. The truth is for most manufacturing/manual labor all that is needed is a normal IQ, 2 arms, 2 legs, and 2 eyes. Trouble is there is a bit of an over-supply people with such qualifications right now on planet earth. The wages will be low. ---sigh Why do I waste my time? sign---- Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiILX1 Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share #28 Posted August 22, 2011 ---sigh Why do I waste my time? sign---- Indeed- and please quit wasting ours. Speak for yourself when discussing your clearly sub-par education which depended on teacher agreement and left you with a social argument that sounds like a plantation owner in the mid 19th century. My liberal arts education got me to critically think a bit more than that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 22, 2011 Share #29 Posted August 22, 2011 My liberal arts education got me to critically think a bit more than that. But sadly did not teach you about splitting infinitives or the use of "got"... Tell you what, instead of hurling insults at each other like "liberal" and "plantation owner" why don't we all calm down a little and agree to differ, eh? CJ is right, these "made in Germany" threads always bring out the worst in people; Dawkins only knows why. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiILX1 Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share #30 Posted August 22, 2011 Its always encouraging when people are brave enough to lead by example, well done! I had an idea where you could start. There are a lot of gold plated electrical connections inside your PC, cameras, cars, TV's, etc. Gold that I bet wasn't mined in Germany, or indeed anywhere else in the Western world. Somebody on poor wages living somewhere in the world went underground doing a back breaking job to mine the gold so the developed world could bask in luxury. I admit I couldn't do without all those things so I'll only be able help you along with some applause I'm afraid. Steve Wow I love this "F*** it all" attitude. Since it's difficult to find a 100% clean product, F*** it all and criticize those who act responsibly by adding at least partially responsible production to what they look at when buying into a product. Raw metals and materials are produced in disgusting ways in many cases absolutely. If I could choose to not buy into that I would - and indeed a focus on these things has brought about new legislation to limit the influx of conflict minerals (New Legislation Monitors Conflict Minerals in Gadgets - Earth911.com). Intel and Apple signed onto eliminating conflict minerals as well- of course they could find ways around it, they could just be keeping their ears shut and asking for a certification, I know all that. But the more pressure and less "F*** it all" attitude out there the more we can stop this sort of thing- really. Resigned? Jaded? Fine- but that doesn't mean everyone has to be. IMO this raises the question as to what is a decent wage and how are you to determine it?Is it to be what in "our" world is a decent wage or is it to be relative to their living standard? If they were paid a "decent" wage, could you afford the resulting items? This is a good question. Fair trade councils, governments, and international NGO's have indexes of living wages in each country which include money for basic things that those communities want, such as a local schoolhouse, enough money for access to healthcare, etc. Multinational corporations aren't often just below our standard of living wage in some impoverished country, they are even exploiting people by their own internal standards. Could we afford it? Yes. Would it be more expensive? Absolutely. Could we afford everything in our lives to be conflict free and living-wage produced? Probably not right now without a lot changing -and that points to the systemic problem of income levels even at home, which make living wage calculations based on exploitively-produced products. Also it points to how prices have gone up so much while wages and the dollar value has gone down so much at the same time that manufacturing costs have gone down so much! How amazing! You hear about how people made something like $5-$8k/yr in the US in 1950 and that you could get a good house for $8k-$10k- less than 2 years salary, and now it's averaging something like $38k and a house is easily 10-15 times an annual salary. It's of course long been a goal to drive down labor costs, but to keep up consumer spending (and a decent standard of living) at the same time they needed cheap credit. The bubble's bursting there and it's becoming a lot clearer now as to just how little everyone makes in relation to the cost of living... Yes it's possible- as little as 50-60 years ago this wasn't such a problem. But sadly did not teach you about splitting infinitives or the use of "got"... If that's all you've got left I'm fine with that. CJ is right, these "made in Germany" threads always bring out the worst in people; Dawkins only knows why. But then what's so interesting is that Leica DOES still print "made in germany" on the X1 and the M9! What does it mean to them that they do it? What does it mean to us that we buy it? I don't think this is the worst of people at all, I think what you guys mean is that people are passionate about the issue. That usually means it's a valuable discussion. Are we saying that one piece of writing on our cameras is off-limits to discuss? I think this is a healthy discussion of exactly what does that mean- and by extension Made in the USA or made in (insert place here). With antisocial neighborhoods common in the 21st century and the network/interest/product-based internet communities so prominent now, why aren't the product internet forums ground zero to discuss such things and declare what matters to us? Manufacturers listen to this- I CARE. Google searchers researching the issue on the internet- I CARE. The MBA's advising Leica on whether they should fire everyone in Solms and start making things in China- I WON'T BUY IT. And in regards to the poster that said he could drive a truck through the holes in that language- you're probably right and I'm not happy with that. I like knowing I'm not hurting anyone with the products I buy, or at least have chosen the best option out there. And I know I'm not alone, and I know it's an issue more and more important to people everyday as they see their colleagues, or their neighbors, or their children fired while we watch about the disgusting working conditions of the people their jobs were given to. It's simple- as long as the production process is something that matters to you things can change. Vote with your buck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 22, 2011 Share #31 Posted August 22, 2011 I think this is a healthy discussion of exactly what does that mean. It's only healthy provided you keep the discussion civil and you don't insult people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebear Posted August 22, 2011 Share #32 Posted August 22, 2011 Philosophising apart, doesn't it just mean that instead of being made in a Japanese or Chinese factory along with thousands of other cameras, TV sets and washing machines, the X1 is manufactured/screwed together/assembled (OK, perhaps from parts made elsewhere on the planet) in a dedicated optical factory in Germany, a country with an enviable repuation for quality and mechanical excellence. No-one buying a Porsche/Merc/BMW would be surprised to find that lots of the parts for these cars are made in the far east or wherever. They're still German cars as opposed to world cars.. One thing's for sure - the IQ on the Leica X1 is better than anything I've experienced from Japan etc., and to me that's what matters most. Made in Germany does mean something after all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiILX1 Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share #33 Posted August 22, 2011 Definitely. And from what I've seen and heard people like working for Leica and take pride in what they produce. I think it shows and I don't think it's controversial to say that earning a good life from your work is most likely condusive to pride, care, and quality. Andy was that you on the video tour of the Solms factory that has circulated so widely? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 22, 2011 Share #34 Posted August 22, 2011 No. I have been to Solms and seen how the cameras and lenses are made, but I have not appeared on video. I would recommend to anyone interested in Leicas to visit the factory and see for themselves how it is done. You will also see the state in which the cameras and lens blanks etc are brought to the factory, from Portugal, Japan and elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djsteb Posted August 22, 2011 Share #35 Posted August 22, 2011 A bit of advice, all free of charge: (1) Thank your maker daily on your knees for sparing you from that affliction. (2) Avoid long words. Just as I said condescending, sadly simple common sense can NEVER be learned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djsteb Posted August 22, 2011 Share #36 Posted August 22, 2011 I love the new mentality by the right, the one where being educated is for stupid people. Try not to confuse education with indoctrination Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted August 22, 2011 Share #37 Posted August 22, 2011 For the next bunfight, try figuring out what the CE mark means;). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted August 23, 2011 Share #38 Posted August 23, 2011 I'd like to see some input from some of the low paid workers that others refer to here. Maybe they actually quite like what they do, like where they live, their families, friends and lives? Just a thought. I recall something on the news about the people living in an Indian slum town fighting to save it, they don't want to move out to new housing, they like where they live, close to jobs which will disappear with their houses and community. It's not so simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnloumiles Posted August 23, 2011 Share #39 Posted August 23, 2011 Try not to confuse education with indoctrination Um. I'm talking about college, yeah that thing thats been around for thousands of years broadening horizons. I'm not talking about a specific college, I'm talking about ANY college, from Arkansas State in good ol' Jonesboro, Arkansas to UC Berkley up there where all the hippies live. When all of a sudden did they start poisoning minds? I'd like a specific date range if you don't mind. to mattnnz: Yes the days of finding a good job blue collar job is over because of outsourcing. When again did that happen? Oh thats right when everything was deregulated! Now who likes to deregulate companies so they can contribute billions of dollars to political campaigns and do whatever the f*&ck they want, whether its poisoning the environment or shutting down all their U.S. factories and destroying unions..hmmm who was that? Well I guess I'll never know because college is dumb and I want to learn from the t.v ..WOHOOOO! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iiNexus Posted August 23, 2011 Share #40 Posted August 23, 2011 One thing's for sure - the IQ on the Leica X1 is better than anything I've experienced from Japan etc., and to me that's what matters most. I prefer the IQ on my Nikon D90 than my X1. I've seen many X1 pictures that are stunning, so I just need to work harder at it than I do with my D90. Heading to Hawaii soon and will be taking my X1 and leaving my D90 behind. Hopefully, I can have some equally amazing pictures with this smaller camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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