dubes Posted July 19, 2011 Share #1 Â Posted July 19, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Threads about Kodak going under are usually relegated to the film forum, but given Leica's dependence on Kodak sensors for the M9 (and M8), what do we think would happen if Kodak were liquidated like Polaroid was a few years ago? It seems far-fetched to think that Leica could source identically spec'd sensors (size, power consumption, noise, etc.) from another manufacturer, so would sensor failure = paper weight? Leica's commitment to 'the Sick Man of Rochester' is my biggest concern with their digital M strategy, particularly for a camera that ought to have a useful life long after the warranty period ends. Â I'd love to hear others' views on this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 Hi dubes, Take a look here What if Kodak fails?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
erl Posted July 19, 2011 Share #2 Â Posted July 19, 2011 Take out insurance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted July 19, 2011 Share #3 Â Posted July 19, 2011 The IP necessary to make an M9-compatible sensor would probably get sold along with Kodak's other IP if push came to shove. And there are a number of other higher end sensor manufacturers around who could potentially step in to supply Leica for an M9 or M10.... Â Still, Kodak's IP alone generates a lot of money--about $300M per year--and that's with recent losses (and wins) against Apple, for example. If their other businesses achieve profitability in the next year, as they've planned, then they could be around for a long time to come. Â Would they be the same company they once were? Nope; but not gone. Â I'm more worried about film, actually. Who will produce Portra and TriX once Kodak decides to jettison it? Sigh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 19, 2011 Share #4 Â Posted July 19, 2011 http://www.standardandpoors.com/prot/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245301248151 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted July 19, 2011 Share #5  Posted July 19, 2011 I'm more worried about film, actually. Who will produce Portra and TriX once Kodak decides to jettison it? Sigh.  Hi  Lots of smaller companies make film, not the same as Kodaks but good enough to keep your film M shooting. Tri X in 220 has already gone.  Kodak might stop manufacturing the sensor and Leica would need to find alternative suppliers, it is not abnormal to have 2nd sources.  If Leica go out of business M8 & M9 and even M7 and M6 maintenance would be rather more diffricult, like the DMR all over again.  Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted July 19, 2011 Share #6 Â Posted July 19, 2011 http://www.standardandpoors.com/prot/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245301248151 Â I'd like to see this, but it's not resolving to the actual rating, which I'm sure is Kodak's. Â They have fallen mightily since the 70s, but then so has ATT and GM. Â But it takes awhile for a company that generates hundreds of millions in IP alone to actually go down the drain, no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted July 19, 2011 Share #7 Â Posted July 19, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'd like to see this, but it's not resolving to the actual rating, which I'm sure is Kodak's. Â Â See this from a few months back. Â Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Negative Posted July 19, 2011 Share #8 Â Posted July 19, 2011 In a word? "Dalsa." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coz Posted July 19, 2011 Share #9 Â Posted July 19, 2011 Their debt and cds trade at levels where a default is inevitable but hopefully they can re-organize or be bought by someone post bankruptcy and continue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val Posted July 19, 2011 Share #10 Â Posted July 19, 2011 Leica will be the first buyer. The new camera will be named "Leikod " and the dot will be yellow. But this with the new model M59-P. With saphire glass of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggriswold Posted July 19, 2011 Share #11 Â Posted July 19, 2011 Kodak has a solid imaging business which could be spun off or sold to Dalsa. The big question is how many spares sit in a locker in Solms? Only Leica knows..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted July 19, 2011 Share #12 Â Posted July 19, 2011 The big question is how many spares sit in a locker in Solms? Only Leica knows..... Â Maybe I should buy a spare chip from Leica now. Let it sit in that locker until I need it in 10 years or so. I wonder what they would charge... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coz Posted July 20, 2011 Share #13 Â Posted July 20, 2011 Maybe I should buy a spare chip from Leica now. Let it sit in that locker until I need it in 10 years or so. I wonder what they would charge... Â probably 7k as in a new M9 body! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 27, 2011 Share #14  Posted July 27, 2011 Just read this on Forbes website "Now, sadly, Kodak has a negative net worth—its market value is about $750 million, far less than the $1.3 billion it held in cash at the end of March. The Wall Street Journal reported on Monday that investors were dumping Kodak’s bonds for well below face value, an ominous sign of skepticism about Kodak’s ability to survive."  Borders and Kodak Are Facing Doomsday. Who’s Next? - Chunka Mui - Devil's Advocate - Forbes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted July 27, 2011 Share #15 Â Posted July 27, 2011 Well the moment Solms runs out of any of the silicon innards for the M8 and M9 the cameras will be irreparable. You can't really ressurect old chip designs in small batches. Â Perhaps if Kodak go out of business then Leica can outsource the entire body production to Canon. They will be able to make it to the same basic design for a third of the price, at a much higher volume with better quality control, weather sealing, decent firmware and with a nice, fat, low noise, live view CMOS sensor in it (no AA filter) and electronic focus confirm. Then Solms can concentrate on lenses and sourcing enough dodo skin and kryptonite for the Portuguese to make a new special edition M7 that will come in a box made from fragments of the true cross and only be sold to bonafide oligarchs at $4M per pop. Much like they were doing before the M8. Â Flame suit on..... Â Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 27, 2011 Share #16 Â Posted July 27, 2011 Ummm.. small question: If Canon could do that why are they not doing it? They like to make a Yen as well as the next bloke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted July 27, 2011 Share #17 Â Posted July 27, 2011 Kodak won't fail, because I've just started buying and using film again! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted July 27, 2011 Share #18  Posted July 27, 2011 Ummm.. small question: If Canon could do that why are they not doing it? They like to make a Yen as well as the next bloke.  So, small answer: I think you are misinterpreting my preposition, which was that Leica could approach Canon and ask them to build the Mxx. After all they have badge re-engineered Panasonics, so a hook up with other manufacturers is nothing new. Canon do of course make a yen and haven't been on the verge of bankruptcy for years.  The long answer: Perhaps they could also make their own. As you know, prior to moving to SLRs Canon (and Nikon) were successful making rangefinders and the lenses for them. The market moved on, so did Canon and Nikon, Leica survived, for the most part by making limited edition vanity cameras for the uber-heeled and ripping off their loyal customers. An example of this today is by deciding to fit the sapphire screen to the M8.2 but not to the M9. The conversation in Solms must have gone something like...  "Well once we've done the m9 what are we going to do next? I know, we'll put cheap paint on it and give it the crappy plastic screen from the M8, then we can release a new one with the sapphire screen and paint that doesn't blow off on a windy day, then they'll have to buy another one or we'll charge them something ludicrous for retrofitting the screen."  I can't imagine Canon deliberately fitting the next flagship 1DS with something inferior out of the old parts bin to make room in the upgrade path. Maybe they just don't know how to make a yen.  However, I digress, Canon and Nikon are not in the low volume manufacturing business and to make units in such low volumes wouldn't be profitable unless you are in the same market space as Leica and there isn't really the room there. Canon sell a lot of professional kit and the cameras of choice for most photojournalists is the 1DS which sells for about the same as the M9P. Canon's G series is as far as they've been willing to push the price of small cameras. They may have assumed and in my opinion, incorrectly, that no-one would buy a small camera that is less versatile than a low end DSLR for well over a £1000 unless it had a red dot on it. So Leica have had this territory to themselves for a long time.  But then Fuji turn up with the X100. Everyone (more or less) loves them and everyone wants one if only as a second camera. The same everyone is saying 'if only it came with interchageable lenses'. So perhaps Fuji have opened the doors for Canon and Nikon to produce something like the M series that we all know and love. They did it in the film days they could do it again.  Just because they haven't, doesn't mean the can't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 27, 2011 Share #19  Posted July 27, 2011 So, small answer: I think you are misinterpreting my preposition, which was that Leica could approach Canon and ask them to build the Mxx. Canon does custom camera and sensor development and manufacturing for other camera vendors? That’s news to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted July 27, 2011 Share #20 Â Posted July 27, 2011 In the pantheon of things that I am going to worry about this comes somewhere below "does my bum look big in this?" Â Regards, Â Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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